basically, what i'm saying is that you are overestimating these players abilities, not just new signings but all of your players. many wouldn't get in other championship side first teams, certainly not in the top half. the pick of your better players, ie the likes of martin and jet all have major flaws, therefore they aren't actually that good. drury, jet, murphy, hewitt... if these are players you are picking out as being good, it explains precisely why you are struggling so much because they simply aren't good championship quality players. there's a big difference between being a 'very good signing' and 'being capable', which effectively is what i was saying about the likes of chambers and taylor.
There's so many contradictions in your posts. Look at you last sentence, you say Taylor is a good play but it's 50/50 whether he's a good player!! And you said that you did not call them very good signings, no but you pretty much said all of them good signings. I really fail to see what this argument is about. I'd argue we have some quality in our squad which a new manager could potentially utilise so therefore I'd like to see him try and use alot of the players currently at the club rather than just overhaulling the squad. From your opinions of the players which we signed, I agree with your assessment of them surely you would think a good manager would be able to utilise them to be good players in this division?? Therefore meaning they are good players?? Just off form or out of sorts or misguided??
if you re-read my post, you'll see it was a spelling mistake and i edited it about being a good player - was meant to say great player. i really didn't say they were good signings - please read it again. loach - poor chambers - could be good but only ever had one good season before hewitt - a kid taylor - good footballer, off-field issues, 50/50 signing **** me, its not rocket science. you seem to have got confused between 'being good players' and 'improving your squad'. do these players improve your team? loach? yes - cos you didn't have a bloody keeper before that! chambers? yes - cos you didn't have a centre half! hewitt? no - maybe one day taylor? yes, probably, but as i say, hit and miss player, talented lad but no guarantees. so it just goes to prove how weak your overall squad is when you see these players improving your overall abilities! none of these players are top championship players - two i wouldn't even say are championship players full stop. will a new manager get the best out of your squad? well that all depends who that manager is, but my point, which i've being trying to get over from minute one here, is that 'the best' you can hope for out of these players is a low championship finish, maybe 19th, something like that, therefore, you do not have good players.
Pretty much it boils down to this.. (some) Ipswich fans think that we have some good players in a poor team that coached, managed and led correctly would become better championship players - meaning on potential alone we are in a false position, but where we deserve to be on performances so far Against A Norwich fan thinks who all our players are overrated and we are not a very good team as well as a group of poor players. Opinion Vs Opinion and personally I side slightly more with the first, simply because we finished last season (sort of) strongly and on occasion this season we have looked decent. The two games our resident canary has seen we probably weren't (as I'm sure he will point out to us) so in my view there are worse players at other clubs than we have and therfore we are not the worst team just the worst managed and in the biggest rut There
hey, its been good fun debating with you guys. we'll see what your new manager, whoever that may be, can muster up out of what he's been left with. i'm sure even you can see they will have a bloody hard job on their hands but its far from impossible
King, I think you have used the key word in your summary. POTENTIAL. Supers argued that potentially Hewitt, Chambers and Taylor could be great for us but arent currently. PTC argued that potentially JET, Martin & Chopra are great players, yet we have seen the last 3 have more bad games then good. I think we have great potential in Carson, Hyam, Cresswell & Hewitt but until that potential is realised then we are in a potential mindfield. On Potential I wouldnt be worried about us but in the reality of what we see on a pitch for 93 minutes then we have issues, some may be resolved with a change of manager but I cant see how you can blame him for missing open goals, , not attempting a tackle, air shots or 101 other individual moments of stupidity that have seen us fall to bottom of the league.
Tbh I think we are sorting of argreeing in a way but atm Tractorbhoy is taking the glass half empty approach and I'm taking the glass half full approach (along with yourself as your allegience). I agree with your assessment of our players, I just think we have players with quality at the club, they're far from world beaters but a new manager coming in could get the best out of them by bringing players into compliment them, say a leader like De Vos next to Chambers, and Alan Lee type striker next to Chopra and experienced CM to combat the flair and inconsistency of Martin and JET. We've gone IMO under Keane from having too many average hardworking players to perhaps now too many players with quality and a bit of flair but lack a bit of mental strength, consistency, concentration. We need more balance to the team but we have good players. I was very surprised (as I'm sure you were) with regards to us getting Taylor as I seem to recall you said you thought he was PL bound, rumours were Norwich were after him. So next time you say 'I've heard good things about this kid' or 'would be a good signing for you' or 'get him back to his previous level (you clearly think there's a good player in there) and you've got yourselves a bargain' or 'good players, all improve your squad' I have to remember you mean they're adequate and you obviously don't rate them!! The only reason why I'm getting confused about being 'good players' and 'improving your squad' is because I don't know if you noticed but you used the words good players and never said improving your squad!! Am I going mad here???
ptc, surely even you will admit that your squad this summer was so light on numbers that bringing in fred flinstone would have improved things! norwich, as far as i know, were never in for taylor. i doubt very much he is good enough for the premier league but its unquestionable that the kid is talented. he just has had so many off-field issues, it's understandable nobody had gambled on him. that's why i said he's a 50/50 signing - could work, might not. and just because he has talent, doesn't make him a good footballer - same applies to jet and martin. best footballer i ever saw aged 16 now plays non-league football aged 26 or so. he could teach most professionals a thing or two about ball control and skill but he never applied himself. yes, i had heard good things about hewitt - i was being honest as i always am about players - but he's nowhere near good enough to waltz into your first team! i said you did well to get him, not because he's brilliant but because bigger clubs had looked at him. that doesn't mean he'd be playing for them either. having potential is so different to being able to do it from the off. he might be ready in two years time, therefore he does not improve you. likewise, chambers had a great season two years ago, really good. last year he was truly dreadful, terrible. this is why i said if you get him playing as he was two years ago, you might have a good player on your hands. no offence, but if chambers was still the player he was two years ago, forest wouldn't have let his deal run down.
Yes potentially is a key word. But we need players to compliment each other, something PJ failed to do. I really think a De Vos, a Magilton and a Lee in our team would make the world of difference!! Paul Lambert is infact very good at this and part of the reason why he had such success at Norwich. I know me and Supers had arguments about the quality of the Norwich team and I said I thought individually Norwich didn't have great players but collectively they were a good team. The strength of Lambert and Norwich was, they had a mix of players and a balance of players who positionally were very good. Our problem IMO is we do not have this balance, IMO we basically have half a squad/team, we have too many fair weather inconsistent players who have potential but lack that bit of no how or resiliance but that's not to say they're not good players at this level!! I agree with the individual mistake, the manager cannot be blamed for this but IMO these mistakes defensively are coming because of a lack of confidence/resiliance which a new manager may be able to bring. And I'm not sure we can stop the missing of chance but what happens atm is we miss a chance, then heads drop and the opposition get into the game hopefully with a new manager heads won't drop and eventually one of these chances will go in!! For me mental fragility has been our biggest down fall this season, although the abbundance of loans in the past few weeks hasn't helped!!
You're right our squad was paper thin and any GK or CB would have been an improvement but if we had signed a CB like O'Dea I doubt you would have come on here saying he's a good signing for you, just because he improves your squad. It's for example like Loach, you didn't say he was a good signing because you didn't rate him despite him improving us!! Do you get what I'm trying to say here? You clearly think there's some decent players (potentially) in there for this level otherwise you wouldn't have said they were good signings. Perhaps you're just using the old addage 'you're only as good as your last game' (or last 10 in our case) and therefore I would agree with you we don't have good players!! Perhaps I should have used talented players instead of good players??
PTC, I agree the equivilent of Lee (would never of sold him) Magilton and De Vos would be great additions to the squad but thats a 1/4 of the team just to add some semblance of stability. Our owner has removed funding and so will we get who we want and neeed? Im not convinced. The 3 players we need are also worryingly the spine to the team. The 3 players I have a current issue with (Chopra, JET & Martin) dont look ready for a battle so thats now 6 out of the 11 I have concerns over. The loan situation was what tipped me over the edge with Jewell. Its short termist and worries me. We have a loan keeper, loan central defender, loan midfielder, short term contract midfielder and loan striker in our team and normally Murphy on the wing. The 3 additions we both agree are needed, the 3 players I think are not pulling wait and the 5 loanees now takes that to 11 players from our 18 - thats why Im panicked! If we get rid of the loans we are down to the bare minimum, we cant make signings at the moment (and Im not sure if Evans will finance them anyway) if we swap loans for news loans its a rebuilding exercise and even more time to gel. Its early in the season, we are not cut off and we are not totally useless but we do have potentially major issues and this appointment needs to be the right one.
ok, that makes sense to a degree. clearly i must be more careful how i word things! had you signed o'dea i would have said "he's a terrible signing", because that's what he would have been. i still don't see how saying a player who was good two years ago, but been crap last year and therefore could be good if he regains form equates to being a 'good player' - potentially yes, but its a massive risk of a signing - but i guess you see it differently. i maintain that i predicted you would finish 16th or lower this season and i still think that, so your players can't be that good can they. it also means you've got a weaker side than last year as you finished 15th i believe. why would i predict that if you'd just made a host of signings i rated? for me, the best player on your books is jason scotland. he is the most talented player you have at your disposal who is actually owned by ipswich. now i don't rate him very highly, but i still think he's your best player. can you see what i'm saying? also, the likes of de vos, magilton and lee is a whole spine of a team! what you're saying is your team has no spine!! no wonder you're bottom...
Yeah from now on don't say 'would be a good signing for you' or 'good players' because I'll actually think you meant they're good players!! Listen I don't rate Chambers that highly but with the right guy next to him I think he's a very good player at this level, I generally agree with your assessment. I geuss when you said if he had pace you thought some PL clubs would be interested in him, I thought it meant you rated the guy but clearly not!! Can I ask, do you think Grant Holt is a good player?? I do (ashamedly enough) but he's been rubbish this season (up until Arsenal) and has really only hit heady hights the past couple of seasons, so therefore he's not a good player?? again I'm being pedantic here to try and prove a point!! The reason you prediced us finishing low despite actually saying in the main those players were good signings (bar loach) is because like basically everyone else we didn't sign enough players on permanent deals. IMO I have no problem with the majority of the players we currently have, I have a problem with who we didn't get in and now with how many loans we've got!! In terms of the De Vos, Magilton, Lee argument, yes we need to strengthen our spine but we still have decent players in the spine IMO but the reason I said we need this type of player is because they are leaders and none of them will be beaten, that's the kind of player we need to guide and spur on some of the younger talented players we have at the club!! I'm not denying we need strengthening but we don't really need a total rebuild unlike when first came here!! Actually if we'd manage to sign the likes of Campbell, Murphy, Reo-Coker and Higginbotham over the summer on a permanent I'd be fairly happy with the first team squad. The fact that they've come in part way through the season and not on permanants is a worry!!
