Fair Financial Play Rules

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Spurf

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Jan 27, 2011
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I noticed this comment posted by Cove on the Albert's Chip Shop Article. (Click FORUM look at the left hand side and you will find Articles.)

It already is, here in the Dutch competition, all professional football clubs must have their bookkeeping up to FFP standards. The FFP rules are already acted out here since 2010. Clubs like Ajax and Feyenoord had to restructure their entire business accordingly. Feyenoord almost went bankrupt. AZ Alkmaar was practically braindead because their main sponser, a bank, went bust. But both came back and are close to having a positive balance. In the first division, two clubs went under: RBC Roosendaal and HFC Haarlem which existed since 1889 and was dissolved on its 120 year anniversary. And as of last week a third club was declared bankrupt. AGOVV, long time amateur club was that will be dissolved tomorrow, a month before its 100 year anniversary.

This is all due to the bad economy but also due to the strict FFP rules. The clubs couldn't pay their players anymore and had to file for bankruptcy.
Welcome to the future.

In Holland it appears to have hit some 'lower' clubs and caused their demise, as always with new legislation there are unforeseen consequences. The original 'target' of these changes I understood to be clubs like Man. City and Chelsea with hugely rich owners bankrolling their chosen 'toys'. That's a bit different from 2 second tier clubs and an amateur club of long standing.

What do we know about these unforeseen consequences? Can any of our 'financial' posters throw any light?
 
I don't dispute what the article claims without reading more on the subject. However, from what I know of HFC Haarlem, their bankruptcy had more to do with rapidly declining spectator numbers and the fact that they had been looking for a new financial backer for some time, with no success.
 
FFP is better than nothing, just about. But there are too loopholes to it and too many clubs that have already been bankrolled by bored billionaires for the rules to do much more than preserve the status quo. City are the only big club that would be affected by the change as Chelsea have already bankrolled their success for long enough that their revenue has started to catch up. The idea of spending within your means would only stack the odds further in United's favour whilst the near endless list of loopholes and bizarre exemptions mean that the rules won't affect Chelsea and City as much as you'd expect given which I guess would help keep some level of balance at the top.

However, the fact that there are so many exemptions and quirks to the law mean that they don't act as quite so much of a prevention for clubs for clubs going bust, it's very possible for clubs to develop unmanageable debts under the rules and even the rules themselves don't act as that much more than a detterent and an early warning that a club could be spiralling out of control.

All in all it's an underwhelming thought that the most logical way of preventing clubs going bust and others buying their way to success would leave United in a stronger position than ever and the current proposals for FFP mean things will be more balanced at the top, leave 2/3 of the current top 6 permanently "stuck" to the top of the table and leave plenty of leeway for clubs still to spend their way into trouble. I don't know about anyone else but I'm depressed :(
 
I don't dispute what the article claims without reading more on the subject. However, from what I know of HFC Haarlem, their bankruptcy had more to do with rapidly declining spectator numbers and the fact that they had been looking for a new financial backer for some time, with no success.

True, Haarlem was the first to take the hit of the rapidly declining economic circumstances. FFP was not in effect at the time. Just stating that the financial system as it was let up to the destruction of football clubs in The Netherlands. RBC Roosendaal and AGOVV and in lesser extent BV Veendam all have been struck with financial collapse since the introduction of FFP.
 
Here are some financial figures of the Dutch competition, note that the 2010/2011 season is the time when FFP was introduced

Average salary spending:
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Club revenues combined:
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Top graph: Average personel cost per club, note this is the total, not just player salaries
Bottom graph: Total net result of the Eredivisie, which is the combined profits and losses of all 18 clubs added up.

Now here is a better indication for FFP:

Average player wages spendings per club in the Eredivisie:

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FFP is better than nothing, just about. But there are too loopholes to it and too many clubs that have already been bankrolled by bored billionaires for the rules to do much more than preserve the status quo. City are the only big club that would be affected by the change as Chelsea have already bankrolled their success for long enough that their revenue has started to catch up. The idea of spending within your means would only stack the odds further in United's favour whilst the near endless list of loopholes and bizarre exemptions mean that the rules won't affect Chelsea and City as much as you'd expect given which I guess would help keep some level of balance at the top.

However, the fact that there are so many exemptions and quirks to the law mean that they don't act as quite so much of a prevention for clubs for clubs going bust, it's very possible for clubs to develop unmanageable debts under the rules and even the rules themselves don't act as that much more than a detterent and an early warning that a club could be spiralling out of control.

All in all it's an underwhelming thought that the most logical way of preventing clubs going bust and others buying their way to success would leave United in a stronger position than ever and the current proposals for FFP mean things will be more balanced at the top, leave 2/3 of the current top 6 permanently "stuck" to the top of the table and leave plenty of leeway for clubs still to spend their way into trouble. I don't know about anyone else but I'm depressed :(

This is the dilemma. I thought FFP might be a good idea at first, but it isn't. FFP is bound to reward the largest and best run clubs. Utd have the biggest revenues from gate receipts and commercial income. Putting the Glazer acquisition debt issues to one side, the club is very well run and extremely profitable. In the PL, the only two clubs able to compete with Utd on the pitch in the last 8 years have been bankrolled by billionaires. Not even Utd fans wants to see the authorities impose financial regulation which stifles any meaningful competition even further, believe me! So curbing the excesses of Chelsea and City sounds great in theory (and is easy to justify), but it won't solve the problem to be addressed- which is to prevent clubs overspending and risking financial ruin in a vain attempt to compete with the richest clubs.

If you want clubs to operate within their means and in doing so, create a more level playing field for competition, then measures such as redistributing income, budgeting, salary capping etc are the only effective tools.
 
This is the dilemma. I thought FFP might be a good idea at first, but it isn't. FFP is bound to reward the largest and best run clubs. Utd have the biggest revenues from gate receipts and commercial income. Putting the Glazer acquisition debt issues to one side, the club is very well run and extremely profitable. In the PL, the only two clubs able to compete with Utd on the pitch in the last 8 years have been bankrolled by billionaires. Not even Utd fans wants to see the authorities impose financial regulation which stifles any meaningful competition even further, believe me! So curbing the excesses of Chelsea and City sounds great in theory (and is easy to justify), but it won't solve the problem to be addressed- which is to prevent clubs overspending and risking financial ruin in a vain attempt to compete with the richest clubs.

If you want clubs to operate within their means and in doing so, create a more level playing field for competition, then measures such as redistributing income, budgeting, salary capping etc are the only effective tools.

Bullshit argument in full, the Uefa is going to set up a three catergory system which I explained on the NUFC with the Dutc variety if it:

The Dutch financial fair play is regulated in three catergories.If a club is in category III it means it's financial healthy and can take care of themselves. Category II means that the club is in tough financial times but they are still in the clear. The KNVB(Dutch FA) will be keeping a close eye on the books. Category I means the club is in big financial problems and that the KNVB will put the club in legal restraint and takes over finances. At this point the club needs permission from the FA to buy or loan players. They are forced to sell players that are above a certain wage scale. And they have to restructure the organization to the point that the expenses is back to the level the FA finds acceptable. The FA only can determine in which category a club is. Currently the rule is, that if a club remains in category for more than three years, the club is fined, excluded from european competitions and points are deducted in competition. This rule is in effect s of July 2010 with the start of the 2010/2011 season.

So what this means is that the FA can have full control of the finances of a club, which means that ManC and Chelsea owners can't inject money in the club when they are financially unhealthy. They can start putting money back in it once the club is healthy again. Stop for crying out loud that only the big clubs will profit from FFP because it's utter bullshit and you're making yourself look ridiculous. These FFP hit every club that is doing a ****ty job at keeping their finances in check. Now get out!
 
I'm with those that think that it's unworkable and will ultimately benefit the biggest clubs at the expense of those that it's supposed to help.
How is anyone ever supposed to challenge the top 2 in La Liga, for example? Their ridiculous stranglehold on the finances of that division has already turned it into a joke.
Real may be ballsing it up a bit this season, but it's not going to last.
 
Progress of Civilization

1. The powerful take advantage of anarchy to exploit the weak.
2. Rules are made.
3. The powerful take advantage of the rules to exploit the weak more efficiently and with less risk.
 
I'm with those that think that it's unworkable and will ultimately benefit the biggest clubs at the expense of those that it's supposed to help.
How is anyone ever supposed to challenge the top 2 in La Liga, for example? Their ridiculous stranglehold on the finances of that division has already turned it into a joke.
Real may be ballsing it up a bit this season, but it's not going to last.

As you're probably aware, PNP, in Spain the clubs negotiate their own deals for all sponsorship. Plus, most importantly, they negotiate their own deals with the TV companies. As every Spaniard I know supports either Real or Barca ( predominately Real in this area) you can easily guess who gets the vast majority of the TV pie.
 
An article in the Guardian that you may have missed:-

Premier League split over domestic financial fair play regulations
Arsenal, Liverpool, Spurs and Manchester United are calling for robust domestic laws against objections of Chelsea, Manchester City, Fulham, Aston Villa and West Bromwich

Owen Gibson
The Guardian, Monday 14 January 2013 15.46 GMT

The leaked letter signed by officials of Arsenal, Manchester United, Liverpool and Tottenham emanated from the Emirates Stadium.
It was hardly in the spirit of the season. But the fact that a robust pre-Christmas letter to Premier League headquarters arguing that a mooted domestic version of Uefa's Financial Fair Play should be as robust as possible emanated from the Emirates should not come as a surprise.

Of all top-flight clubs Arsenal are keenest on ensuring the concept, introduced by Uefa last season and limiting clubs to losses of €45m (£37.5m) over three seasons, sticks. Ivan Gazidis, the chief executive, sees the introduction of some sanity to football's overheated finances as crucial to its own "investment neutral" plan for success. The fact that very model is under scrutiny as never before from their own fans, paying the highest prices in the country and contemplating the prospect of another potentially trophy-less season, only raises the stakes.

The joint letter, co-signed by Liverpool, Manchester United and Tottenham Hotspur, was sent just before the latest meeting of all 20 clubs as they edge their way towards a compromise on an issue on which none hold exactly the same view.

The timing of the leak of the letter is also unlikely to be coincidental – the meeting at which clubs are expected to vote on the issue is due to be held next month. Nor is it a surprise that the quartet are four of the clubs who stand to gain most from any rules limiting them to only spending what they earn. Indeed, the introduction of FFP was cited by the overseas owners of Liverpool and Arsenal as a key reason for their investment and has been eagerly seized upon by the Glazers, given Manchester United's natural and growing revenue advantages. At White Hart Lane, meanwhile, the chairman, Daniel Levy, has long been convinced that his ability to run the club at break even would enable it to thrive in a FFP regulated landscape.

The argument is not a new one and has been debated at several successive meetings of the Premier League "shareholders". Twenty clubs, all with different agendas and different business models, have 20 self-interested views on how the rules should be brought in – if at all. But in light of the bumper TV deal brought in by the Premier League's executives, likely to top £5.5bn once overseas rights are taken into account, and given the top clubs will have to comply with Uefa's rules anyway, a broad majority view has emerged that a domestic version of FFP is desirable.

The leaked letter, and a strong speech made by the Manchester United chief executive, David Gill, at the meeting that followed, were designed to set out the position of the four clubs keenest on the introduction of tough rules. At the same meeting, it is understood that representatives of other clubs also made their positions abundantly clear amid the sound of sabres being rattled.

The broad principle is that – after 20 years in which the Premier League has in the eyes of its critics become a Wild West casino for global investors – they must no longer spend more than they earn. As with Uefa's version, there would be various caveats allowing for investment in youth development and facilities. And while Uefa will initially allow for losses of €45m over three seasons , a total that will decrease on a sliding scale after that, it is likely that the Premier League version will allow for more leeway – as long as losses are covered by an equity injection from a benefactor (as at Chelsea and Manchester City).

That would allow clubs who are not yet challenging for Europe time in which to invest to catch up with the rest, goes the argument. Where that level should be set is at the heart of the debate. The hardline quartet who wrote the letter to the Premier League chief executive, Richard Scudamore, want to ensure the rules stick to the letter of Uefa's law - a position that could see them accused of trying to pull up the drawbridge behind them.

Sixteen of the 20 clubs broadly agree that some form of Financial Fair Play-style regulation is a good thing. They are haunted by the prospect of their looming TV revenue windfall simply flowing into the pockets of players and agents and have come to agree that some sort of external brake on endless wage inflation is desirable For a club such as West Ham United, the rules would give them the ability to stand up to agents to control endless wage inflation. For a club such as Swansea City, they would validate their own careful financial husbandry. And even for Chelsea, who want a version of domestic FFP that allows a level of benefactor funding higher than Uefa allows, it provides a means to try and reign in wage increases and the club's reliance on Roman Abramovich's largesse.

Gang of Four once recorded a song called Don't Fix What Ain't Broke and that broadly sums up the position of the quartet of clubs who oppose the new rules. The reasons for Manchester City's dissent are pretty obvious, but at West Bromwich Albion they believe that they are perfectly capable of managing their own finances and fail to see why they should give, say, David Gold a helping hand in his battles with agents. At Fulham, Mohamed Al Fayed is ideologically convinced clubs should be allowed to spend their money as they see fit and owners should be allowed to "dare to dream" by pouring cash into their chosen project. Aston Villa are also opposed. Such is the depth of feeling at some of those clubs, sources claim legal action could be considered should they feel sufficiently disadvantaged by any new rule.

At the heart of their concern of the coalition of aligned interests who signed the letter to Scudamore is also a fear, most keenly felt by Arsenal, that Uefa will not be able to implement its own rules properly and that the promised land of FFP will turn out to be a mirage.

They fear that the recent deals signed by Etihad to sponsor Manchester City and, in particular, the €200m a season deal by the Qatar Tourism Authority to bankroll Paris St-Germain - which doesn't even include shirt sponsorship - suggest it will be unable to cope. Uefa, of course, insists that is not the case and that there is provision in its rules to deal with "related party" deals.

Some would even like to see the Premier League fund its own compliance unit to investigate its clubs and ensure they stick to any new rule, but that too is unlikely given the expense and regulatory contortions involved. Nor is it likely, given the historic battles between the two, that Uefa would be invited through the door to extend its monitoring of clubs in European competition to the domestic league – even if that was its ambition.

Meanwhile, there is also a second plan, originally floated by the Sunderland owner, Ellis Short, that seeks to limit inflation by agreeing a percentage cap on the amount wages could rise per season. Yet here too things are far from straightforward. Should the rule apply across the board or only if clubs are making a loss? If the mechanism used to enforce it was through the provision of centrally collected TV money, would that have an impact on ticket prices? The most likely outcome of all this is that the Premier League will end up with a version of Uefa's rules but will allow for more leeway and rely largely on a system of self-regulation. That will not satisfy Arsenal, Manchester United, Spurs and Liverpool. Nor will it appease the four clubs opposed. But as a sign that clubs are at least edging towards a collective solution to stemming the tide of red ink of recent years – albeit for reasons of self-interest – it may represent some progress
 
They fear that the recent deals signed by Etihad to sponsor Manchester City and, in particular, the €200m a season deal by the Qatar Tourism Authority to bankroll Paris St-Germain - which doesn't even include shirt sponsorship - suggest it will be unable to cope.

They're having a laugh, aren't they? I was under the impression that UEFA were already investigating City's so I assume their lack of action is probably due to them bottling it and allowing clubs to add as many fake sponsorhips as they like. I'm not sure why I expected anything from UEFA to work but it is frustrating to think everything will pretty much continue as is.
 
I need some explanation on this whole FFP issue. For example if uefa are making the rules why are national associations making their own? Are we to have different rules for different leagues?
 
I need some explanation on this whole FFP issue. For example if uefa are making the rules why are national associations making their own? Are we to have different rules for different leagues?

It says in the article you posted ;)

Clubs that come under UEFA's FFP rules and are untroubled by it, like Liverpool, United, Arsenal and us are unsure that UEFA will enforce it effectively so want the Premier League to control the spending trhoughout the Premier League. In addition toa better level of enforcement it could also provide the peace of mind, when making significant investment, that they will not find in 2/3 years that there's more Citys and Chelseas clogging up the top of the table.
 
It says in the article you posted ;)

Clubs that come under UEFA's FFP rules and are untroubled by it, like Liverpool, United, Arsenal and us are unsure that UEFA will enforce it effectively so want the Premier League to control the spending trhoughout the Premier League. In addition toa better level of enforcement it could also provide the peace of mind, when making significant investment, that they will not find in 2/3 years that there's more Citys and Chelseas clogging up the top of the table.

Does it YV? There is also this:
And even for Chelsea, who want a version of domestic FFP that allows a level of benefactor funding higher than Uefa allows

And this:
And while Uefa will initially allow for losses of €45m over three seasons , a total that will decrease on a sliding scale after that, it is likely that the Premier League version will allow for more leeway – as long as losses are covered by an equity injection from a benefactor (as at Chelsea and Manchester City).


How can the PL allow for more leeway? That will bring them outside the uefa rules wont it?
 
I need some explanation on this whole FFP issue. For example if uefa are making the rules why are national associations making their own? Are we to have different rules for different leagues?

The UEFA rules will only apply for clubs in UEFA competitions. In other words you can do what you want if you're not in European competition.

I believe that the result of not abiding by FFP rules will simply preclude you from competing in the CL or EL. So in theory a billionnaire could buy Port Vale, make them champions year after year just so long as they're happy to forgo European football.

The recent letter was requesting that these rules also apply for teams only involved in domestic competition.

I think that's right.