Off Topic EU Referendum

[Blacker-than-Knight]

Le Touquet treaty. The French have already said this could be revoked post brexit. I'll stress the word "could" as there is no guarantee however you just never know.

It's already ridiculous that there are camps of migrants trying to get to the UK from France, they are already in a safe place but want to get to the UK, nothing has been done to deal with this for years so lets go to war, the French Liberal elite hate us anyway.

 

[Magnet]

Simplifying the various arguements my own perception of the ultimately key issues between "in" and "out" are as follows.

"In". Economic stability and keeping the status quo so as not to rock the boat.

"Out". Do we want independence and self rule regardless of the uncertain future from an economic perspective.

I haven't decided at this stage. I am old enough to remember why we joined Europe in the 1970's which was to facilitate trade, not political union. On that level I am for leaving.

On the other side of the coin I run my own business and whilst it has nothing to do with trading with Europe or indeed anywhere else but like to think I am wise enough to acknowledge what an adverse impact economic uncertainty can have on the country. On that level I am for staying in.

Neither "side" have, for me, covered themselves in glory in the way the referendum has been approached with both sides trying to scare people to their side and am genuinely disappointed at the level of debate but perhaps I was expecting too much. I am still looking and listening to see if any side can advance an arguement which sways me. On the one side you have the beware of the immigrant and on the other it will be economic armegeddon prophecies.

Economically we have stormy waters ahead because of the"debt", the euro and the Greece et al effect regardless of whether we are in or out. Immigration wise my biggest concern is the inability to control the numbers who can come in if we stay in as regardless of what they undoubtedly bring in economic pluses we cannot sustain an influx at the current levels as we have finite resources. As you might see at the moment I'm probably leaning towards out as if we can't control numbers then that will bring economic disaster eventually.

I'm still open to persuasion so if anyone wants to convince me then I'm all ears.

 

[DarloGeordie]

The issue is that the likes of Gove and Johnson are leading the Brexit campaign purely for their own ends and not for the good of the country.

All this dangerous nonsense such as there will be an extra £300m a month to spend on projects such as the NHS if we pulled out. This is a web of deceit being spun as it's the same crowd who want to dismantle the NHS for what it is (which is what Hunt's task is: to do a Dr Beeching job) and replace it with a For Profit model. So this £300m extra a month won't go to the NHS it will, without doubt, go into the pockets of their chums in industry and not used for the good of the common man.

And that's only assuming that the £300m is an accurate figure. It won't be because they don't know and because we're in 'Purdah' the Remain campaign can't go to the Civil Service and as for figures to dispute this. It's basically a lie and one that they can get away with until the referendum.

One can sum up the two sides' arguments as follows.

Remain: the EU is crap for us but not as crap as it would be if we were to leave.
Leave: It's all unicorns and rainbows. Trust us.

This is why I'm voting to leave, scaremongering the voters. We pay more into the EU then we get out, there is no way financially possible as where is the money coming from if we are paying less and getting more. Other countries would be royally pissed off if that was happening.

I could say

Remain: Its the same ****
Leave: Britain is crap but I would rather it be us who decide what we can do with our money.

 

[General Lee Speaking]

Simplifying the various arguements my own perception of the ultimately key issues between "in" and "out" are as follows.

"In". Economic stability and keeping the status quo so as not to rock the boat.

"Out". Do we want independence and self rule regardless of the uncertain future from an economic perspective.

I haven't decided at this stage. I am old enough to remember why we joined Europe in the 1970's which was to facilitate trade, not political union. On that level I am for leaving.

On the other side of the coin I run my own business and whilst it has nothing to do with trading with Europe or indeed anywhere else but like to think I am wise enough to acknowledge what an adverse impact economic uncertainty can have on the country. On that level I am for staying in.

Neither "side" have, for me, covered themselves in glory in the way the referendum has been approached with both sides trying to scare people to their side and am genuinely disappointed at the level of debate but perhaps I was expecting too much. I am still looking and listening to see if any side can advance an arguement which sways me. On the one side you have the beware of the immigrant and on the other it will be economic armegeddon prophecies.

Economically we have stormy waters ahead because of the"debt", the euro and the Greece et al effect regardless of whether we are in or out. Immigration wise my biggest concern is the inability to control the numbers who can come in if we stay in as regardless of what they undoubtedly bring in economic pluses we cannot sustain an influx at the current levels as we have finite resources. As you might see at the moment I'm probably leaning towards out as if we can't control numbers then that will bring economic disaster eventually.

I'm still open to persuasion so if anyone wants to convince me then I'm all ears.

On the immigration issue, my take is that the overwhelming majority of EU immigrants come here to work and do so. If the jobs weren't there a lot of them wouldn't come or go home as I believe the benefits they can claim have been restricted. Far more of an issue is immigrants from Asia and Africa whose work ethic has arguably been less enthusiastic and a big drain on the benefits system and this vote won't really change that. As for illegal immigrants and refugees, they won't stop hiding themselves in lorries to get to this country because of this vote. Legitimate asylum seekers on the continent aren't going to go away and we will still end up taking large numbers of them (although, just as Cameron has done now, nowhere near as many as other countries). I also think it will be less than ideal that our own people do not have the freedom to work in other countries freely. A lot of them do so at the moment. From a housing perspective, we simply need to build more houses and that is a UK government failure rather than an EU one, and frankly one which should have been addressed long before now.

 

[Magnet]

On the immigration issue, my take is that the overwhelming majority of EU immigrants come here to work and do so. If the jobs weren't there a lot of them wouldn't come or go home as I believe the benefits they can claim have been restricted. Far more of an issue is immigrants from Asia and Africa whose work ethic has arguably been less enthusiastic and a big drain on the benefits system and this vote won't really change that. As for illegal immigrants and refugees, they won't stop hiding themselves in lorries to get to this country because of this vote. Legitimate asylum seekers on the continent aren't going to go away and we will still end up taking large numbers of them (although, just as Cameron has done now, nowhere near as many as other countries). I also think it will be less than ideal that our own people do not have the freedom to work in other countries freely. A lot of them do so at the moment. From a housing perspective, we simply need to build more houses and that is a UK government failure rather than an EU one, and frankly one which should have been addressed long before now.

That is one point I keep promising myself to look into namely how the immigration numbers break down between EU and non EU to see if it is even relevant to staying in or not but haven't got round to doing so. Not sure if those numbers exist. Logically they must do.

Tie knot in hankie to do that this weekend.

Edit: Here's one take on it

https://fullfact.org/immigration/eu-migration-and-uk/

And a second take

http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/key-topics/european-union

Not sure of each sites bias in arguement.

 

[General Lee Speaking]

This is why I'm voting to leave, scaremongering the voters. We pay more into the EU then we get out, there is no way financially possible as where is the money coming from if we are paying less and getting more. Other countries would be royally pissed off if that was happening.

I could say

Remain: Its the same ****
Leave: Britain is crap but I would rather it be us who decide what we can do with our money.

As far as I can tell the net contribution to the EU is £7.1bn/year which equates to about £115/year for every man woman and child in the country. The annoying thing about this whole EU payments debate is not being able to quantify what the free trade agreement actually contributes back to our economy but it surely must be far, far in excess of £115/person/year. When you factor in all the extra business it brings in, the jobs it creates and the tax revenue those jobs create, then again through the multiplier effect on the wages that are then spent on other goods and services, and the tax paid on those, and so on and so forth, there must be more than £115/person/year added to the economy?

 

[pauljohnhutch]

I'm out .why?because I want the uk to be my home ,not a hotel for every one in europe

 

[TheJudeanPeoplesFront]

This is why I'm voting to leave, scaremongering the voters. We pay more into the EU then we get out, there is no way financially possible as where is the money coming from if we are paying less and getting more. Other countries would be royally pissed off if that was happening.

I could say

Remain: Its the same ****
Leave: Britain is crap but I would rather it be us who decide what we can do with our money.

We pay more in than we get out? Bullshit. You are confused by what EU membership is if you think that.

 

[TheJudeanPeoplesFront]

That is one point I keep promising myself to look into namely how the immigration numbers break down between EU and non EU to see if it is even relevant to staying in or not but haven't got round to doing so. Not sure if those numbers exist. Logically they must do.

Tie knot in hankie to do that this weekend.

Edit: Here's one take on it

https://fullfact.org/immigration/eu-migration-and-uk/

And a second take

http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/key-topics/european-union

Not sure of each sites bias in arguement.

We get an economic boost from immigrants, they don't all come here for the sole like the daily mail reading outers are saying, and ultimately most of the failures in relation to immigration are UK government related, not EU related. We are not part of the schengen zone.

 

[Sheikh_of_Araby]

One issue with the EU that really gets my goat is the slow move to a centralized legal system. EU law, despite having bestowed on us some fantastic legislation [equality act and various employment laws] is mired in bureaucracy. Courts in the UK [and Parliament] are no longer the final arbiters of justice. Parliamentary sovereignty and the final word of the 'Supreme' court are now only an illusion. Everything has to be compliant with EU law. The ability for our own elected Parliament to pass legislation is seriously diminished because they may pass a law that the bureaucrats deem incompatible with their beloved 'treaty.' That more than anything is the thing that pushes me towards the leave button. The common law system with Parliamentary sovereignty has worked for centuries.

 

[LiamO]

I`ll give you the view from here in Turkey. Most Turks do not think they will ever be allowed to join the EU as they think it is a Christian Club. The only thing they want is to have visa-free travel to the UK and other Euro nations. That why they have done the migrant deal, But, there are 2.5 million Syrians in Turkey now and they look like staying for good. We have a load of them near us, they have moved into an old disused villa complex 200 yards down the road. they will be given Turkish passports and resident status eventually, as Erdogan and his government think if they give them a passport they will more than likely always vote for his AK Party in elections, thereby keeping them in power for years to come. However, once they have their citizenship and passports, and if Turkey gets its visa-free travel wish, they will be free to come to the EU willy nilly. This migrant deal wont keep them out, its just delaying the inevitable. they have just kicked the can down the road for a few years.And believe me, you do not want them as neighbours.!! Therefore its OUT for me

 

[DarloGeordie]

We pay more in than we get out? Bullshit. You are confused by what EU membership is if you think that.

I see no facts either way so I think I'm right, you will think you are right. Touche

 

[Blacker-than-Knight]

Just a point on the EU Council, the EU Council apportions voting rights to each member state based roughly on population though by no means a real reflection of the actual differentials between member states, the UK has 29 votes, the same as the major players France, Germany and some others, this is out of a total of 352 votes so as a percentage of the total we have 8.24% of the votes in the EU Council. I am often told that we are better of in and we can change the EU by doing so, taking into account the level of influence that having 8% of the vote gives us it looks more like UKIP getting 4 million votes at the election but only one seat in Parliament, they are in Parliament but have about as much chance of changing things as a butterfly trying to push an elephant, to me this our position in the EU and they know it full well.

 

[Blacker-than-Knight]

We get an economic boost from immigrants, they don't all come here for the sole like the daily mail reading outers are saying, and ultimately most of the failures in relation to immigration are UK government related, not EU related. We are not part of the schengen zone.

I notice you only say immigrants, what about illegal immigrants, illegal migrants, migrants and asylum seekers both legal and bogus, as for Schengen we are not fully participant in this but do accept certain provisions of the treaties and it is a recommendation of the EU council that we become fully accepting of all provisions, something that will be pushed for after the vote on the 23rd June if we vote to remain along with other issues being held back because they will be politically difficult.

 

[General Lee Speaking]

.

I notice you only say immigrants, what about illegal immigrants, illegal migrants, migrants and asylum seekers both legal and bogus, as for Schengen we are not fully participant in this but do accept certain provisions of the treaties and it is a recommendation of the EU council that we become fully accepting of all provisions, something that will be pushed for after the vote on the 23rd June if we vote to remain along with other issues being held back because they will be politically difficult.

We'll still have illegal immigrants and asylum seekers whether we're in or out. The UK has a veto on Schengen so cannot be forced into it and will never sign up to it in the foreseeable future.

 

[General Lee Speaking]

I'm out .why?because I want the uk to be my home ,not a hotel for every one in europe

The UK is your home and it's not a 'hotel' for everyone in Europe. Are you just saying you don't like foreigners being in your country?

 

[Beardsley's Rancid Sack]

The UK is your home and it's not a 'hotel' for everyone in Europe. Are you just saying you don't like foreigners being in your country?

I think it depends where you are in the country. The burnt hand often teaches best. I know in many of areas of my city - mass immigration, whether it is from the EU or not, has ruined communities and just increased segregation. You might not have it in Newcastle or parts of the North East but in parts of the Midlands its been hit hard - extremely hard.

 

[pauljohnhutch]

The UK is your home and it's not a 'hotel' for everyone in Europe. Are you just saying you don't like foreigners being in your country?

when you play the race card you have lost the arguement

 

[Sheikh_of_Araby]

Limited, controlled immigration is great for the country as it allows the authorities to admit people that address skills shortages and contribute to the economy.. Mass uncontrolled immigration on the other hand has ruined sections of this country. I know the do-gooders don't like to hear it because they live in their cosy middle class suburbs, but there are parts of the country that are fast becoming no go areas because the communities there do not want to integrate with British society. We have admitted people that should not be here. Not racism or xenophobia; it's the truth.

 

[Blacker-than-Knight]

.

We'll still have illegal immigrants and asylum seekers whether we're in or out. The UK has a veto on Schengen so cannot be forced into it and will never sign up to it in the foreseeable future.

The Treaty of Schengen goes back to 1985 and it's inception in 1995, it was fully adopted as EU policy and one of the core drivers of the EU along with the Euro through the 1999 Treaty of Amsterdam, the veto's and opt out that we currently have will should we vote to remain come under immense pressure to be set aside as we will have mandated the acceptance of full membership of the EU, there is no half measure in the factor of remain, all the EU Council has to do is impose a legislative factor with fines for failure to comply, we only have an 8.24% say in the Council so guess what, we will lose.

We will as you say still have illegals however not being subject to Europeans Courts we will be able to more freely remove illegal immigrants and can impose much better border restrictions and stop the flow inwards, we are also then better able to control all forms of immigration and migration, similar but very different things.