Off Topic EU deabte. Which way are you voting ?

[petersaxton]

I did ask that very question in my original post and the one you've just quoted as well but you seem to be missing it in your haste to respond

I've not said we must join the common market, I've asked the question whether we should or if we want to. At the risk of upsetting you, I think you need to follow your own advice in your previous post

We don't want to. We don't want freedom of movement.

 

[Treble]

But that is what you were talking about. Free movement - you mentioned it above. I'm pointing out that there is absolutely no sense in expecting countries outside the EU to accept free movement. The EU seems to have an obsession with it and doesn't seem to care that it results in people from poorer countries moving to richer countries. What is the logic of encouraging that?

I mentioned it as one of 4 conditions of something called the common market. Are you aware of this? (Genuine question as I find your posts a little strange tbh). It wasnt the primary point of my post. I was asking the question whether we want to be in the common market or not. If we did it seems like freedom of movement atm will be a condition of that. However if we don't want to be part of the common market then it shouldnt matter. I do feel this is like drawing blood from a stone lol but all I asked was do we want to be part of the CM and/or do we need to be. Hope that clarifies it for you.

 

[NSIS]

I can just see where this is going!

I'm outta here!...

 

[petersaxton]

We sell 45% of our exports to the EU countries. The EU countries sell 14% of their exports to the UK. That means that they sell 86% of their exports to the rest of the world on the same terms that we can only sell 55% of ours. That would indicate a) that we do not produce enough that the rest of the world requires or b)they don't want what we can sell. If we can only sell that much on equal terms how will we increase that on almost certainly worse terms.

We are one country selling to 27 other EU countries in that 45%
The 86% of their exports are not to the rest of the world it also includes the other 27 EU countries.

 

[petersaxton]

I mentioned it as one of 4 conditions of something called the common market. Are you aware of this? (Genuine question as I find your posts a little strange tbh). It wasnt the primary point of my post. I was asking the question whether we want to be in the common market or not. If we did it seems like freedom of movement atm will be a condition of that. However if we don't want to be part of the common market then it shouldnt matter. I do feel this is like drawing blood from a stone lol but all I asked was do we want to be part of the CM and/or do we need to be. Hope that clarifies it for you.

I most certainly am aware of it. I just dont see why it is relevant. If we dont want to accept free movement we wont want to be in the common market. We can trade with the common market but not in the common market. There's a difference. Let me make it as clear as possible. THE UK DO NOT WANT TO BE PART OF ANY AREA, MARKET OR WHATEVER YOU WANT TO CALL IT THAT WOULD ENTAIL UNLIMITED IMMIGRATION FROM EU COUNTRIES.
I hope you can understand that now. I thought I had made it clear at every stage of this discussion but there we go.

 

[Treble]

I most certainly am aware of it. I just dont see why it is relevant. If we dont want to accept free movement we wont want to be in the common market. We can trade with the common market but not in the common market. There's a difference. Let me make it as clear as possible. THE UK DO NOT WANT TO BE PART OF ANY AREA, MARKET OR WHATEVER YOU WANT TO CALL IT THAT WOULD ENTAIL UNLIMITED IMMIGRATION FROM EU COUNTRIES.
I hope you can understand that now. I thought I had made it clear at every stage of this discussion but there we go.

You do seem to like picking arguments where there are none When you join the government or become prime minister I'll take your caps locks seriously. In the meantime I'll wait for someone to give me a broader opinion on what our future elected leader's position might be. Perhaps have a more broader debate on it. Thanks for your input though... it was emotional

 

[Treble]

I can just see where this is going!

I'm outta here!...

I thought I'd asked a fairly reasonable question tbh.... kin hell

 

[Tobes]

I most certainly am aware of it. I just dont see why it is relevant. If we dont want to accept free movement we wont want to be in the common market. We can trade with the common market but not in the common market. There's a difference. Let me make it as clear as possible. THE UK DO NOT WANT TO BE PART OF ANY AREA, MARKET OR WHATEVER YOU WANT TO CALL IT THAT WOULD ENTAIL UNLIMITED IMMIGRATION FROM EU COUNTRIES.
I hope you can understand that now. I thought I had made it clear at every stage of this discussion but there we go.

By the UK, you really mean you.

 

[petersaxton]

Look at it like this. My wife and I live in the same house. We both are happy to have each other go in whichever room in the house we want.
Down the road is Sainsburys. We buy goods from Sainsburys.
In no way do we allow Sainsburys to have free movement for any of their staff to enter our house.
I dont think that is "cherry picking".
If Sainsburys said to us that their staff should be able to enter our house when it suited them because we had a trading relationship with them I would think they were crazy. If they insisted then I would end any trading relationship with them and buy from Marks & Spencer next door instead.

 

[Treble]

By the UK, you really mean you.

I actually wasnt even asking about that on its own lol. I had about 3 variables and trying to weigh up our governments various options in my original post but I seem to have said something that caused the rant. No idea what I did to cause it but there you go

 

[Stan]

That's a strange way of looking at it. Everybody else thinks that that makes it in OUR favour. They want to sell to us. We could always buy from the rest of the world. What is it that we desperately need from the EU and only the EU?

The stats suggest you're wrong. Why are we even bothering with proposed negotiations if we don't need EU trade?

 

[Stan]

Buying goods and services is "hugely convoluted"? Why do companies use call centres in Asia when there's plenty of call centres nearer? There certainly seems an appetite to go down that route. I don't think you are giving businesses enough credit for being able to do relatively straightforward activities. If consumers want to buy cars from outside the EU rather than Germany they dont have to go hunting around for individual cars. A business will buy thousands of cars, ship them over and sell them to retailers. It might be a shocking prospect to you but plenty of businesses do this sort of thing all the tiume.

Frank, out of interest, how much of your income is reliant on trade with the EU? Obviously I'm not expecting you to declare your cash in hand payments from your Polish tenants living in your Mitcham HMO slum.

 

[Tobes]

Look at it like this. My wife and I live in the same house. We both are happy to have each other go in whichever room in the house we want.
Down the road is Sainsburys. We buy goods from Sainsburys.
In no way do we allow Sainsburys to have free movement for any of their staff to enter our house.
I dont think that is "cherry picking".
If Sainsburys said to us that their staff should be able to enter our house when it suited them because we had a trading relationship with them I would think they were crazy. If they insisted then I would end any trading relationship with them and buy from Marks & Spencer next door instead.

Good grief.

We have circa 3 million EU citizens who've taken up residence here, as opposed to circa 2 million Brits who've taken up residency in the EU. It's a 2 way street, and the economic migrants who've come here make a net contribution to our economy.

Your analogy is bollocks as you are the customer in that analogy. It would have to be 2 supermarkets trading with each other for that to make even the vaguest sense. The fact that you've made the UK the home owner and customer speaks volumes about your mindset on this entire issue.

 

[Stan]

Look at it like this. My wife and I live in the same house. We both are happy to have each other go in whichever room in the house we want.
Down the road is Sainsburys. We buy goods from Sainsburys.
In no way do we allow Sainsburys to have free movement for any of their staff to enter our house.
I dont think that is "cherry picking".
If Sainsburys said to us that their staff should be able to enter our house when it suited them because we had a trading relationship with them I would think they were crazy. If they insisted then I would end any trading relationship with them and buy from Marks & Spencer next door instead.

I'm going to need to see evidence that your wife is happy. A redacted letter will suffice.

 

[Treble]

I'm going to need to see evidence that your wife is happy. A redacted letter will suffice.

Lmfaoo

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[petersaxton]

You do seem to like picking arguments where there are none When you join the government or become prime minister I'll take your caps locks seriously. In the meantime I'll wait for someone to give me a broader opinion on what our future elected leader's position might be. Perhaps have a more broader debate on it. Thanks for your input though... it was emotional

You said: “Yeh but you can't cherry pick what they say to support your argument then ignore what they say when it doesn't suit”
But then later you admit you hadn’t seen me “cherry pick” but you were just guessing! Ie. “I would hazard a guess you've mentioned something someone has said from the EU to support an argument even if it's not this one. But if you haven't then fair enough. I just don't like it when ppl cherry pick that's all.”

I’d made it clear time and time again that the UK would not accept free movement of people:

[HASHTAG]#6480[/HASHTAG] “I'm pointing out that there is absolutely no sense in expecting countries outside the EU to accept free movement.”

[HASHTAG]#6481[/HASHTAG] “We don't want freedom of movement.”

Despite the above you said: “I mentioned it [free movement] as one of 4 conditions of something called the common market. Are you aware of this? (Genuine question as I find your posts a little strange tbh).” … “I was asking the question whether we want to be in the common market or not. If we did it seems like freedom of movement atm will be a condition of that. However if we don't want to be part of the common market then it shouldnt matter. I do feel this is like drawing blood from a stone lol but all I asked was do we want to be part of the CM and/or do we need to be.”

I felt I’d made it clear what my views were on freedom of movement but you’d still said that you felt it was like drawing blood from a stone! I felt I had no option but to emphasis my position as follows: “THE UK DO NOT WANT TO BE PART OF ANY AREA, MARKET OR WHATEVER YOU WANT TO CALL IT THAT WOULD ENTAIL UNLIMITED IMMIGRATION FROM EU COUNTRIES.”

Strangely, rather than being happy that I had made my position clear you said: “You do seem to like picking arguments where there are none”!

 

[Tobes]

You said: “Yeh but you can't cherry pick what they say to support your argument then ignore what they say when it doesn't suit”
But then later you admit you hadn’t seen me “cherry pick” but you were just guessing! Ie. “I would hazard a guess you've mentioned something someone has said from the EU to support an argument even if it's not this one. But if you haven't then fair enough. I just don't like it when ppl cherry pick that's all.”

I’d made it clear time and time again that the UK would not accept free movement of people:

[HASHTAG]#6480[/HASHTAG] “I'm pointing out that there is absolutely no sense in expecting countries outside the EU to accept free movement.”

[HASHTAG]#6481[/HASHTAG] “We don't want freedom of movement.”

Despite the above you said: “I mentioned it [free movement] as one of 4 conditions of something called the common market. Are you aware of this? (Genuine question as I find your posts a little strange tbh).” … “I was asking the question whether we want to be in the common market or not. If we did it seems like freedom of movement atm will be a condition of that. However if we don't want to be part of the common market then it shouldnt matter. I do feel this is like drawing blood from a stone lol but all I asked was do we want to be part of the CM and/or do we need to be.”

I felt I’d made it clear what my views were on freedom of movement but you’d still said that you felt it was like drawing blood from a stone! I felt I had no option but to emphasis my position as follows: “THE UK DO NOT WANT TO BE PART OF ANY AREA, MARKET OR WHATEVER YOU WANT TO CALL IT THAT WOULD ENTAIL UNLIMITED IMMIGRATION FROM EU COUNTRIES.”

Strangely, rather than being happy that I had made my position clear you said: “You do seem to like picking arguments where there are none”!

Do you not see the massive hypocrisy in you being so vehemently against free movement when you've married a Pole?

I'm guessing your wife has or still does work in this country and has therefore added to our economy?

And before you reiterate it, I know she came over before Poland joined the EU, but I'm also certain that her life over here has been massively better than it would have been back in her home country.

That's the prime driver for all economic migrants who come here now. Why shouldn't they strive to improve their quality of life and in doing so add to our economy in the process? The net migration to the UK from the EU is only circa 1 million people, why is it such a massive problem to the likes of you?

 

[petersaxton]

I actually wasnt even asking about that on its own lol. I had about 3 variables and trying to weigh up our governments various options in my original post but I seem to have said something that caused the rant. No idea what I did to cause it but there you go

Some people seem to think one option is to have a free trade deal with freedom of movement. You can call it what you want but that is what it is. I don't think the UK government can accept that given what was said during the referendum.
Another option is to have a free trade deal without freedom of movement.
If the EU wont accept that then there will be tariff barriers and it will be less likely that the UK and EU would do as much trade with each other.
The UK could also trade with the rest of the world and so could the EU.

You call it a "rant" but I call it an attempt, which should have not been necessary, to ensure you understood that I didn't think the UK government would accept freedom of movement. I thought I had made it clear several times but you still thought you were trying to "get blood out of a stone".

 

[Tobes]

Some people seem to think one option is to have a free trade deal with freedom of movement. You can call it what you want but that is what it is. I don't think the UK government can accept that given what was said during the referendum.
Another option is to have a free trade deal without freedom of movement.
If the EU wont accept that then there will be tariff barriers and it will be less likely that the UK and EU would do as much trade with each other.
The UK could also trade with the rest of the world and so could the EU.

You call it a "rant" but I call it an attempt, which should have not been necessary, to ensure you understood that I didn't think the UK government would accept freedom of movement. I thought I had made it clear several times but you still thought you were trying to "get blood out of a stone".

The referendum was a straight leave or remain.

The bigotry and racism that was behind a percentage of the leave vote should be treated with the contempt it deserves and not pandered to by the Govt in its negotiations with the EU.

 

[Treble]

You said: “Yeh but you can't cherry pick what they say to support your argument then ignore what they say when it doesn't suit”
But then later you admit you hadn’t seen me “cherry pick” but you were just guessing! Ie. “I would hazard a guess you've mentioned something someone has said from the EU to support an argument even if it's not this one. But if you haven't then fair enough. I just don't like it when ppl cherry pick that's all.”

I’d made it clear time and time again that the UK would not accept free movement of people:

[HASHTAG]#6480[/HASHTAG] “I'm pointing out that there is absolutely no sense in expecting countries outside the EU to accept free movement.”

[HASHTAG]#6481[/HASHTAG] “We don't want freedom of movement.”

Despite the above you said: “I mentioned it [free movement] as one of 4 conditions of something called the common market. Are you aware of this? (Genuine question as I find your posts a little strange tbh).” … “I was asking the question whether we want to be in the common market or not. If we did it seems like freedom of movement atm will be a condition of that. However if we don't want to be part of the common market then it shouldnt matter. I do feel this is like drawing blood from a stone lol but all I asked was do we want to be part of the CM and/or do we need to be.”

I felt I’d made it clear what my views were on freedom of movement but you’d still said that you felt it was like drawing blood from a stone! I felt I had no option but to emphasis my position as follows: “THE UK DO NOT WANT TO BE PART OF ANY AREA, MARKET OR WHATEVER YOU WANT TO CALL IT THAT WOULD ENTAIL UNLIMITED IMMIGRATION FROM EU COUNTRIES.”

Strangely, rather than being happy that I had made my position clear you said: “You do seem to like picking arguments where there are none”!

I'm afraid I never actually asked for your position which is what you seem to have missed in all this. All I can do is ask you kindly to go back and read my original post on page 322 slowly to try to understand the broader question with several variables I was genuinely interested in trying to discuss. Never mind, but I do worry when someone goes to the extent you just have with your current post. Learn to let go as this is turning comical tbh.