****ers
- Thread starter Ron
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Quite a variety of comments about Douvan!
I'm certainly not qualified nor educated to pass judgement on Douvan's paddock appearance but, regarding his "running up light" or being "spare ribbed," I remember Vincent O'Brien running a horse called Turbo Jet in the 2000 Guineas Trial at Kempton.
He had a tremendous sheen to his coat but every rib was sticking out of his body. Yet he still bolted up when Piggott unleashed him.
During last week's race, it was obvious early on that Douvan was not jumping with his usual fluency. He was seriously 'overreaching' at his fences.
Walsh would have known this, but at what point does a jockey pull him up- as opposed to hoping he would recover his rhythm?
My gut feeling was that he should have pulled him up, but I suppose jockeys can be ultimately selfish in the heat of the moment when immersed in the prospect of winning a big race.
You could level the same criticism at both Pat Taaffe and John Haine for their handling of Arkle and Buona Notte respectively in the sixties. Why wasn't Arkle pulled up in The King George when he suddenly faltered against Dormant- or likewise Buona Notte when he "failed to rise" at several fences before eventually killing himself?
Maybe this is a subject worthy of debate in itself.
I'm certainly not qualified nor educated to pass judgement on Douvan's paddock appearance but, regarding his "running up light" or being "spare ribbed," I remember Vincent O'Brien running a horse called Turbo Jet in the 2000 Guineas Trial at Kempton.
He had a tremendous sheen to his coat but every rib was sticking out of his body. Yet he still bolted up when Piggott unleashed him.
During last week's race, it was obvious early on that Douvan was not jumping with his usual fluency. He was seriously 'overreaching' at his fences.
Walsh would have known this, but at what point does a jockey pull him up- as opposed to hoping he would recover his rhythm?
My gut feeling was that he should have pulled him up, but I suppose jockeys can be ultimately selfish in the heat of the moment when immersed in the prospect of winning a big race.
You could level the same criticism at both Pat Taaffe and John Haine for their handling of Arkle and Buona Notte respectively in the sixties. Why wasn't Arkle pulled up in The King George when he suddenly faltered against Dormant- or likewise Buona Notte when he "failed to rise" at several fences before eventually killing himself?
Maybe this is a subject worthy of debate in itself.
I think you're right Tam. Ruby is a horseman and one would have therefore assumed that he would have felt something wasn't right but the selfishness (or pressure) took over.
I remember a horse (you probably will too) called Royal Marshall. He was almost on the floor in the parade ring and ribs extremely prominent and looked as disinterested as anything. But, as Shergs pointed out, one has to know the horse and that was how he looked when at his best on the course. Lack of muscle though is something different. He wasn't in condition to do himself justice and that would have contributed to his over jumping early on. The injury obviously affected his performance but he was not himself before that. I'm disappointed if Willie puts that performance down solely to the injury. For all we know that injury could conceivably have been there, in a mild form, before the race - conceivably I stress.
Good morning, Ron. Hope you are keeping well.
I have a question...
I've thought for a long time that horses are kept in cotton wool nowadays.
Can this in itself be a factor to making them more liable to injury?
For many sports eg soccer, you only get fit by playing regularly. Are horses getting enough worthwhile exercise when they only run a handful of times per season? Are they susceptible and more vulnerable to harm because they are overprotected from the rigours of strong competition and effort?
I accept that some horses thrive on racing and others don't, but I'm asking about an ongoing trend.
Look at Mullins' horses... Annie Power, Faugheen, Arctic Fire- all injured but have run less races between them in the last three years than say an old timer like Stalbridge Colonist did in one season!
In other words, are they hardened enough mentally and physically owing to an over-cautious regime?
What's your view, Ron?
I have a question...
I've thought for a long time that horses are kept in cotton wool nowadays.
Can this in itself be a factor to making them more liable to injury?
For many sports eg soccer, you only get fit by playing regularly. Are horses getting enough worthwhile exercise when they only run a handful of times per season? Are they susceptible and more vulnerable to harm because they are overprotected from the rigours of strong competition and effort?
I accept that some horses thrive on racing and others don't, but I'm asking about an ongoing trend.
Look at Mullins' horses... Annie Power, Faugheen, Arctic Fire- all injured but have run less races between them in the last three years than say an old timer like Stalbridge Colonist did in one season!
In other words, are they hardened enough mentally and physically owing to an over-cautious regime?
What's your view, Ron?
This is Vautour. The picture at the start is after his supreme win. He looks either in bad condition or else he's really fit. Judging by the result I'm going with the latter. I can't imagine Douvan being any different.
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Isn't it really just a case of a horse running no sort of a race because he sustained an injury? I'm no expert on horses injuries or vet, but I'd make a guess it's hard to win races with a stress fracture?! Presumably this was picked up during one of his early jumps as seems to be the general school of thought from those closest to the horse. Full credit to anyone knew this was going to happen by seeing how many ribs they could see on him in the parade paddock 
I'd agree Ruby should have pulled him up though, seemed a bit draft continuing a lost cause from 2 out but it just shows even the greatest jockey of our lifetime can make mistakes in the heat of battle...
I'd agree Ruby should have pulled him up though, seemed a bit draft continuing a lost cause from 2 out but it just shows even the greatest jockey of our lifetime can make mistakes in the heat of battle...
No need for sarcasm beefy. Especially as the pre paddock impression was nothing to do with the ribs. Unless you are referring to some other comment you've seen somewhereFull credit to anyone knew this was going to happen by seeing how many ribs they could see on him in the parade paddock
Lets just say for arguments sake that Ron and Bustino are correct, that Douvan was badly prepared for the race, and was in bad shape on the day.
Douvans performance in finishing in 7th place, was the worst of his career, he's probably run 30 pounds below his best.
Would a bad preparation really have that much of an affect on a horse? I'm no race horse trainer, but surely there has to be a lot more to it than just being unfit on the day for him to run so far from his best.
Besides how would a horse like that get so unfit in the middle of the season, unless they'd just kept him in his box doing nothing for a month.
Douvans performance in finishing in 7th place, was the worst of his career, he's probably run 30 pounds below his best.
Would a bad preparation really have that much of an affect on a horse? I'm no race horse trainer, but surely there has to be a lot more to it than just being unfit on the day for him to run so far from his best.
Besides how would a horse like that get so unfit in the middle of the season, unless they'd just kept him in his box doing nothing for a month.
Shergs, I know you are being objective about this, as you always are; but on top of what some of us observed, he came back with a minor fracture of the pelvis. I think that might have had some affect on his running so far below form. He should have been pulled up. How much below form would that have been?
This is an interesting debate but I prefer my conspiracy theory. A couple of questions, was there any activity on the exchanges prior to the race and when questioned the next morning ruby didn't offer up much information on the horses prep. I would have been asking how the horse had been exercising and had he eaten up? I take it douvan had been at HQ for a couple of days. I was interested in what tam had to say and I'd be interested in woolys views he does a bit of work riding. My experience of horses is you can normally tell how the horses are when you are dealing with them on a daily basis and the performance was so bad to me there must have been an underlying issue.
I believe in many cases accidents and injuries happen when an animal is not at its best. He was injured during the race. That's why he finished 7th.
I find Shergs putting words in my mouth. He was not badly prepared and so unfit. He looked over-prepared to me. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe he always looks like a greyhound.
My first point was that I didn't believe what I was being told because it didn't fit with what I was seeing. My second point was that I would not back a horse that looked like that.
Plenty of trainers make mistakes. A horse can't get up in the morning and say 'you know Willy, I don't feel up that that 2 mile gallop today, can you give me a bit of a rest today'. No the horse will be galloped and if he's half the horse Douvan is he will be game.
I find Shergs putting words in my mouth. He was not badly prepared and so unfit. He looked over-prepared to me. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe he always looks like a greyhound.
My first point was that I didn't believe what I was being told because it didn't fit with what I was seeing. My second point was that I would not back a horse that looked like that.
Plenty of trainers make mistakes. A horse can't get up in the morning and say 'you know Willy, I don't feel up that that 2 mile gallop today, can you give me a bit of a rest today'. No the horse will be galloped and if he's half the horse Douvan is he will be game.
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