Epsom -Oaks & Derby

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Heck, how do you answer half a dozen points at once?

stick said:
The two interesting factors around US Army Ranger for me were;
a) the fact that the horse was given so much to do entering the home straight and
b) the thought that he was still a bit green and hung into the rail because of the infamous Epsom camber

I am not usually to be seen championing the Ballydoyle inmates but I really do think the runner up has the more scope and if they meet again on a "proper" racecourse I would certainly be backing him to turn the tables.
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I agree with a) because I have always been of the opinion that you need to be near the pace at Tattenham Corner. Greville Starkey lost The Derby on Dancing Brave by riding him like a non stayer. I can only think of Pour Moi winning from out the back recently.

I agree-ish with b) I think that US Army Ranger is not an Epsom horse. He hung across the camber, but his jockey was not to know that beforehand. Question would be should he have been that wide making his challenge. Split second decisions are why he gets the big bucks.

TopClass said:
I'd also say that US Army Ranger looks a bit of a big girls blouse in a finish. I've no doubt he has more gears and cruising ability than this years 3 year olds but he doesn't exactly lash home at the line does he? He cruises up but then doesn't find a huge amount for pressure.

I really wouldn't want to call the Irish Derby- I wouldn't back Harzand at short prices on quick ground at the Curragh- I think you could get a bit of a turn up in that event if I'm honest.
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I did think that Harzand found more when challenged, so perhaps he would have held off the runner-up even if they had been at The Curragh on soft ground. Question would be is Harzand a soft ground horse, so fast ground at The Curragh is to the advantage of US Army Ranger. Certainly would not back the winner on quick ground but as you say is the runner-up another ‘nearly’ horse at Ballydoyle?

Janabelle13 said:
Harzand looks like the tough honest sort that would be hard to pass.
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Agreed. The Aga Khan will be poring over the stud books to figure out where to send the dam next.

beeforsalmon said:
Harzand looks the St Leger winner to me. No doubt O'Brien will throw half his Derby also-rans at it, with Idaho obviously looking another Doncaster type. A rematch between Harzand and the Ranger at the Curragh would be interesting. It's a stiffer track than Epsom and if it was wet beforehand there's every reason the form could be upheld but on good or quick ground you'd expect the O'Brien to improve past him.
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I cannot see Harzand going to Town Moor but Ballydoyle will be well represented. I do agree about The Curragh – quick ground could hand the advantage to US Army Ranger.

This is what makes racing so great (even without a bet) – the glorious uncertainty. Bring on the rematch!
 
I haven't been on since the big race but having read through the comments I pretty much agree with the view that US Army Ranger was given a poor ride but one not so bad that it would have fatal had the horse himself not been so unsuited, if take the fact that he was only just beat with a bad ride and being unsuited, something which we can not apply to the winner, then US could be potentially a very decent horse. my Money would be on him at the Curragh and I think the bookies on the day will send him off favourite.

My other thought was if either would touch Postponed if turning out in the King George? and I don't think they would lay a glove on him, even at the very favourable weights.
 
Bluesky9 said:
My other thought was if either would touch Postponed if turning out in the King George? and I don't think they would lay a glove on him, even at the very favourable weights.
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At this stage, I would not back the three-year-old colts against Postponed either in the King George.
 
Hopefully its decent ground at the Curragh as Epsom was in horrible condition and leaves some question marks. Hard to say the best horse didnt win though, US Army Ranger handled the ground better than most and got there in time, just wasnt good enough on the day. Wings Of Desire looked the Leger horse before and ran like it, he would be fav for that in my book, he should be suited to better ground and a more conventional track, his sister won the Park Hill there. Dont think Harzand is a certain stayer on breeding being out of a Xaar mare and surely the Leger is the last race on your mind if you win the Derby these days. Idaho wouldnt stay and id be looking at the Queens Vase for Obriens Leger horse now.
 
Der Kaiser said:
Hard to say the best horse didnt win though, US Army Ranger handled the ground better than most and got there in time, just wasnt good enough on the day. Wings Of Desire looked the Leger horse before and ran like it, he would be fav for that in my book, he should be suited to better ground and a more conventional track, his sister won the Park Hill there. Dont think Harzand is a certain stayer on breeding being out of a Xaar mare and surely the Leger is the last race on your mind if you win the Derby these days.
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The best horse won on the day, end of story.

It is very unlikely that the ground at Town Moor will be quick in September so Wings of Desire will not be there. Look for Gosden’s St Leger horse at Goodwood or York.

Harzand is owned by The Aga Khan – the Arc comes ahead of the St Leger these days.
 
It might have been worth running US Army Ranger in the Epsom Derby Trial, rather than the Chester Vase. The race was all of 2 weeks earlier and might have told connections more about the colt's liking for Epsom. AOB started US Army Ranger on April 3rd at the Curragh, the Epsom Derby Trial was April 20th and the Chester Vase on May 5th. I say this every ****ing year like <doh>
 
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OddDog said:
It might have been worth running US Army Ranger in the Epsom Derby Trial, rather than the Chester Vase. The race was all of 2 weeks earlier and might have told connections more about the colt's liking for Epsom. AOB started US Army Ranger on April 3rd at the Curragh, the Epsom Derby Trial was April 20th and the Chester Vase on May 5th. I say this every ****ing year like <doh>
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I love your rage about this Oddy haha!

Totally agree with you- the venue hosts a trial event and everyone passes it up like a bunch of ****wits.
 
OddDog said:
It might have been worth running US Army Ranger in the Epsom Derby Trial, rather than the Chester Vase. The race was all of 2 weeks earlier and might have told connections more about the colt's liking for Epsom. AOB started US Army Ranger on April 3rd at the Curragh, the Epsom Derby Trial was April 20th and the Chester Vase on May 5th. I say this every ****ing year like <doh>
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And in my book you are right about it every year Oddie - keep banging your drum and maybe one day someone will start listening :emoticon-0158-time:
 
Cyclonic said:
With he amount of quality stock that passes through his hands, should AOB win more Derbies than he does? If you were in charge and had a choice, who would you select to train at Ballydoyle?
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O'Brien is a brilliant trainer but I think the decision making is above his head.

I met Graham Cummingham after racing in York and got chatting about Ballydoyle- he said having met Aiden on occasions that he thinks AOB gets pretty frustrated at being the mouthpiece of the operation despite not making the decisons.
 
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A few comments:-

I thought Buick rode a poor race in the Oaks. He wouldn't have got anywhere near Minding but quite honestly he needs to sit down and watch a few of Lester's Derbys. He chased her up at halfway, then pushed her forward again 4f out and partly caused the problems for Minding. He gave the filly no chance of getting home as she was a spent force 100m into the straight.

I don't think Minding acted that well down Tattenham Hill, and though she had nothing to beat, it all went wrong yet she still won easily.

I would not be surprised to see US Army Ranger turn out to be a bit one paced. He may also be better suited to 10f rather than 12f.

When I saw the Dante field I was very disappointed with them. The one horse I liked that day will hopefully turn out at Ascot and put some of the losers here to the sword. The name is Muntazah. Well I hope so.

I think Harzand was a good winner. It seems to be that everyone is saying he's a soft ground horse. Well he's won twice on heavy but he could only run on the going that turned up that day. His sire was reckoned to be a firm-ground horse. I think it may be a bit premature to confine him to the 'only goes on the soft' pigeon-hole.
 
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Bustino74 said:
......... I think Harzand was a good winner. It seems to be that everyone is saying he's a soft ground horse. Well he's won twice on heavy but he could only run on the going that turned up that day. His sire was reckoned to be a firm-ground horse. I think it may be a bit premature to confine him to the 'only goes on the soft' pigeon-hole.
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I agree it's premature to say he only acts on soft because we haven't seen how he handles a sound surface. Haven't watched his action either which would give a clue. It could be that they know he wouldn't be suited by fast ground so have kept him off it to keep him sound. The ground must have helped as he clearly goes in it and definitely stays.
 
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stick said:
Of all the people on here that I have not met you are the one I would most like to spend an afternoon at the races with. Your knowledge of racing is sublime and you are an absolute gentleman.

PS: Quite a few are close behind and those that I have met have mostly been fantastic.
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You'll find I'm just a BOF!! ha ha

We must meet up sometime
 
stick said:
The two interesting factors around US Army Ranger for me were;
a) the fact that the horse was given so much to do entering the home straight and
b) the thought that he was still a bit green and hung into the rail because of the infamous Epsom camber

I am not usually to be seen championing the Ballydoyle inmates but I really do think the runner up has the more scope and if they meet again on a "proper" racecourse I would certainly be backing him to turn the tables.

There is no doubt that the winner was given the better ride and had the smoother passage. Regarding using up energy during a race I feel you use up far less in the first four furlongs than you do in the last four. I would like to see the sectionals because I definitely felt watching the race that the pacemaker slowed them down at somewhere around the six pole and then quickened again at the corner. Who those tactics were meant to aid is a mystery.
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I'd say that's spot on for me, but I'd also agree with Toppy in that he didn't look the strongest in the finish. Whether that temperament or greenness we will see in due course.
 
Spot on with Buick Bustino. He got caught trying to race Minding rather than think of obtaining the best position for his mount. He tried to race up and keep her in before they rounded down the hill, using too much too early for me. Race looked over a long way out.
 
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