EDL Charlton Division would be a bit useless anyway based on our defence in the past few years... To throw my tuppenceworth into the ring, got to say I value the multiculturalism of London and the fact that it's truly a world city. I think the Olympics next year are probably going to be the most spectacular and the greatest show on Earth because London in particular has embraced the positive influences of the rest of the world. I can't deny the existence of Ponders' arguments in the poorest areas of London, but these are far more a failing in the old, decrepit justice system we have in place that rewards those who take the law into their own hands, or at least offers no viable deterrent against them. It is simply far too difficult to imprison a criminal, and the methods in place for preventing reoffence are simply insufficient. The reason immigrants are often tarnished with the negative brush is because frequently they arrive with little money and nothing more than a determination to make their way in this country. Unfortunately the wrong side of the law is fairly easy to slip into in those circumstances... which is also true for those in this country who are born into poverty or suffer from a lack of a decent role model or education. In short, I have zero time for someone who makes judgments on someone based on the colour of their skin or their ethnic origin, and I have no issue with anyone making their home here in England, but with our current state where it is too easy to escape wrongdoings and make a profit through indirectly wrecking the economy and making life so hard for the rest of us, there will always be this undercurrent. Ponders, how many Scots and Irish do you know who consider themselves British?! I'm afraid if you're hanging on to Alfred's ideals you're in for a sore wake-up. I find the notion of the percentage of Angle in one's lineage being a reflection of anything about a person rather disconcerting, it sounds rather like the Aryan ideal. I do agree, however, that Alfred's ideal was a strong England based on law, scholarship and a strong military, which it's rather hard to argue isn't desirable!
you lot make me proud...great debate and lovely to see people exchanging views whilst maintaining respect for each other. credit to charlton you boys what a difference this site is to the old one hey? you would never have maintained such sensible debate on there.
TVR - to suggest that my own idealology is anything like the Aryan ideal is truly insulting. Alfred based his plan for England on peace and tolerance, as do I. I have no problem with a mixed society based on law and scholarship. But there has to be a limit to who can enter and what they bring to the table. You almost suggest that eastern-europeans are the only ones who will work on a car wash. I know at least 20 young people in my area who would jump at the chance to gain this sort of employment. The simple fact is that we have too many on the dole, but continue to import labour from abroad when we simply do not need to. But so many make excuses for the immigrants who come to this country and break the law. There are resources open to them which ensure that they do not need to slip into crime. Just in the same way that the majority of jobseekers do not resort to drug dealing, pimping and the selling of bootleg tobacco etc. I am sure that the majority of Scots, Welsh and Irish do not consider themselves as British, and good on them for it - but they have the freedom to advertise their identities. Whereas, to be openly English and proud is a sign of racist intent. That simply cannot be the case in England.
Ponders, no offence intended, I certainly don't feel an ideology based on the ideals of Alfred the Great is in any way associated with Nazi viewpoints, apologies if it came across that way, but the 50% Angle line seemed a bit odd, given that none of us know our descendents from, say, the 14th century, and can say with any certainty whether they're people we should feel proud to be descended from. I certainly am not suggesting that Eastern Europeans are the only ones who would wash cars either, job opportunities at entry level are difficult to come by is all I was saying, and at that level it's quite easy to turn towards a life of crime, where the quick buck and a shift in lifestyle are more easy to obtain. A soft system like that makes this country more attractive for those who would seek to make an improper living for themselves, whether they're English, European or from anywhere else. I think the majority of immigrants don't resort to drug dealing, pimping and selling of bootleg tobacco either, and I also think that the English aren't immune to these pulls, but I'd be hard to argue a case that a higher proportion of immigrants aren't involved in this activity, but I do believe that's because of the positions in which they find themselves when they get over here, combined with there being very little deterrent to prevent it. I think it's bizarre that as Englishmen we're the only ones in Britain (I believe) not allowed to celebrate with a national day's Bank Holiday, but I don't think to be openly English is a sign of racism, to be openly English and intolerant of other nationalities in England is. English throughout the Eighties/early Nineties were tarred with the hooligan brush, English because a by-word for vandalism and drunkenness across Europe. The majority of these guys would consider themselves English and would probably have a great degree of Angle blood in them, frankly that set back the 'proud to be English' cause about 30 years. I guess what I'm saying is that I'm proud to be English as well, but just don't feel we can mark immigrants on the basis of the actions of a minority within their number, even if that minority is higher than it is in Angle-descended folks...
Thank you, TVR, for your well measured and considered response. Put simply, this country is overcrowded and straining under the weight of its existing populace. Whether the minority/majority of immigrants are law-abiding does not matter in essence. It is the fact that we do not have the resources to cope with a massive influx of new people - good or bad. When there are not enough houses, hospital beds, jobs and other services, it is nonsensical to leave the door open to others. If there were an abundance of resources then it would be unfair to deny those looking to improve their lives. Until then, it is unfair to expose new entrants to the vitriol that will be aimed at them. As an avid historian, I have traced my heritage back to the 8th century with roughly 99% accuracy. I cannot be more sure of my Angle roots. I am proud of them and the ideals of Alfred and later great Saxons. To me, it is no different than those who govern their lives basedon doctrines created well over thousands of years ago. Religion to me is just ideals, ideals based on what we would love to see our society based upon. Except, I do not push my ideals on the masses, because it is my own private belief and one that I have honed over the best part of twenty years. I am sensible to realise that my ideal for England is not viable but it is a state of mind which brings me great comfort and joy. But I appreciate that it may appear odd. Like you, I cannot abide those odious gargoyles who use their 'patriotism' to attack others. But my fear is that the far-right will pounce on the nonsensical approach to immigration that we are experiencing today. Civil unrest is growing but the powerful leftist media will continue to deny the truth to the masses.
All very deep and heavy..maybe my heads buried in the sand who knows but I see no problem with immigration,have no problem with immigrants ...live in south norwood so am surrounded by every creed and color you can think of get on famously with everyone....I dont even think that the English defence league BNP are a major threat just a pathetic minority. Yes that what they said about the Nazi in Germany as is so often quoted,but I suppose one thing you could say about Hitler he was a good orator and had a magnetic personality that appealed tomany. The current idiots over here dont.I`m happy to live in the community that I do my children have been brought up here and dont even notice other kids being black asian polish whatever. I remember going to charlton in the 1970`s when you did have NF Thugs selling their newspapers outside the ground and feel the situation was alot worse then. With the traceing our routes thing well we are all foreign if we go back far enough,does it matter NO. For my sins my parentage is Irish so i`m not PURE English in that sense and a few generations before my father our roots can be traced to France. You say the left wing press ect...which maybe true BUT the right wing press dont do badly either stirring things up with stories of moslems ,or immigrants on benefit so its quite even on that score. Anyway as my friend said its a good debate conducted in the right way,we may beg to differ on things but dont need to trade insults. I voted monster raving looney party at the last election so that shows my political interest.
Thatcher once said that if the Screaming Lord was to drop the act, he could well be one of the greatest politicians this country ever produced. So no shame in voting for the MRLP, Mike. I concur also: my three nippers go to a school where the huge majority are ethnic. Their friends are from all backgrounds and I have no issue with that whatsoever. But there is problem with the curriculum being dumbed down and the lessons being slowed down. With classes of forty or more children, it is awful that the resources are being stretched thinner than ever. The facts state that the average child in an inner-city school are roughly 7-8 months behind that of a child attending a school in a more rural area. This is a situation which will breed contempt and a generation of under-educated youth. For this reason, I am working two jobs, have very little spare time, and also try to bolster my kids' learning with home-schooling sessions. It breaks my heart to know that I must leave the city I love, but for the undoubted good of my children, they must escape the constrictions of city life.
Are you saying that A2C wasn't an intellectual? His view on Beardslee's post-modern theology was most insightful.
To introduce a footie note..... I find it a bit disappointing that Charlton Athletic, who helped start Kick Racism Out of Football does not attract a bigger proportion of black supporters. No idea why.
It could be as Redemption pointed out earlier, that the dark days of the 70s and 80s still play on the minds of black and Asian supporters - and that this mindset has travelled through subsequent generations. Having said that, I think there is a greater number of black fans than there has ever been. Plus the obvious acceptance of Chris Powell as club legend and now manager can only help us attract more supporters through the gates from areas previously untapped - and that can only be a good thing for all concerned.
