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Effect of Brexit

Discussion in 'Watford' started by Davylad, Mar 26, 2016.

  1. yorkshirehornet

    yorkshirehornet Well-Known Member

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    I had to double check the spelling Dan [emoji6]

    Sent from my G3121 using Tapatalk
     
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  2. superhorns

    superhorns Well-Known Member

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    Lord Ashcroft's latest poll shows Brits are not too bothered about Northern Ireland joining the ROI if it meant the rest of the UK leaving the customs union after Brexit. This has long been my view but with the proviso that those living in the North also agreed by referendum. This is not as unthinkable as it once was.
     
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  3. Leo

    Leo Well-Known Member

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    I think the people of NI should do what they choose. Like the Scots they must decide if they do or do not want to be part of the UK - that decision is theirs alone.
    Personally, if I were Northern Irish I think I would prefer to unite with the Republic.

    What I do not support is any arrangement that splits NI from rUK in order to solve customs union issues. While NI is part of the UK it has to be that way and if there needs to be a border in Ireland so be it.
     
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  4. superhorns

    superhorns Well-Known Member

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    It is crunch time for the most extreme remainers in the Tory Party today. They see this as their last chance to affect the Brexit procedure. They will need to decide whether their reluctance to accept the referendum result is worth inflicting huge damage on their own party. At this time the government seem to be confident that sufficient pressure has been applied by the whips, and the individual MP's own constituency officials, to see off the rebellion. The solicitor general has already clearly spelt out what the rebels are seeking is constitutionally and politically unacceptable.
     
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  5. Leo

    Leo Well-Known Member

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    I hope MPs vote with their conscience however they vote. The Tory Party is damaged by its deep splits - as is the country so papering over the cracks fools nobody. My suspicion is the whips will indeed win out. The solicitor general is one view only - albeit quite a learned view. However there is no constitutional crisis here. Technically the referendum vote was not binding - even though we all know it was intended to be honoured. Therefore asking Parliament to have a say on brexit cannot be unconstitutional as I understand it. Politically unacceptable? I consider forcing brexit on millions of people who do not want it politically unacceptable too.
     
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  6. superhorns

    superhorns Well-Known Member

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    Don't forget parliament chose by an overwhelming majority to use a referendum to decide whether the UK stayed in the EU or not. It was well understood that the result would become government policy which has since been ratified by parliamentary votes since. So Brexit has complied with all correct procedures including a considerable number of debates in parliament. I cannot see how it can be described as politically unacceptable? As in general elections the losing political sides just have to accept the verdict decided upon by the people.
     
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  7. colognehornet

    colognehornet Well-Known Member

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    You can't use the analogy of general elections SH. An election result can be reversed after 5 years if the electorate realize they have made a mistake. It can also be modified by subsequent voting at local or European elections. It is politically unacceptable in as much as the British have no real experience of referendums and had not placed the necessary checks to it which are normally associated with referendums. To say that 'The people voted for it' would only be possible if the majority of the electorate had voted for it, and not just those who actually voted. In most other referendum situations non voters are classed as, essentially, voting for no change to the existing arrangement. In order to actually bring about legal or constitutional changes there needs to be a majority who are positively in favour of something - and that is not the case.
     
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  8. superhorns

    superhorns Well-Known Member

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    The UK parliament decided and voted overwhelmingly on the rules to decide whether the UK remained a member of the EU or not. The MPs chose to abdicate their responsibility by letting the UK public have a long promised referendum. The prime Minister made it abundantly clear the result would be treated as government policy. So the system chosen was consistent with accepted UK democracy.

    Everybody agrees that the current parliament has a majority of MPs that are /were remainers. This however has not been reflected in every passage of Brexit through parliament because the MPs know the referendum result must be carried out to preserve our democracy.
     
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  9. colognehornet

    colognehornet Well-Known Member

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    I would hazard a guess that if 'remain' had won by 52%-48% then the matter would not have ended there. Farage would not have gone away and said ''well played sir'' and Ukip would still be with us, agitating. On the other hand the 'remain' side would not have just said 'we won, end of story'. There would have been some addressing of the concerns of the losing side. Brexit is going to happen in some form or other - the order of the day is no longer that, but rather healing the rifts which have occurred within the UK. The permanent use of terms such as 'you lost, get over it', or the 'will of the people' does not help in this process. We have ended up with a deeply divided nation, in which the two camps have, if anything, entrenched their positions. Just as it is imperative to be able to leave the EU. without harming our relations to our nearest neighbours for the foreseeable future. So, also we need open debate about where to go now - a small majority agreed on taking a journey, but the destination was not agreed and it is that which now needs to be debated.
     
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  10. yorkshirehornet

    yorkshirehornet Well-Known Member

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    A fair and well balanced summary. There is really nothing to add to that.
     
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  11. superhorns

    superhorns Well-Known Member

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    To proceed Brexit requires the antics of some desperate rabid remainers to cease. There are elements still trying to reverse the referendum decision.The UK needs to back the government of the day in securing the best deal possible. No money should promised, or paid, to the EU until a suitable mutually acceptable trade, security etc future relationship is agreed upon. Arrangements for a no deal scenario should be fully completed as a bad deal is much worse than a no deal.
     
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  12. colognehornet

    colognehornet Well-Known Member

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    This is the type of sabre rattling which is making everything more difficult. If you want to leave the club then you make an arrangement to pay what is owed before any future arrangement can be worked out, all quite simple really.
     
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  13. superhorns

    superhorns Well-Known Member

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    It would be silly to give the cash without a deal, which is why May said 'nothing is agreed until all is agreed'. I hope she sticks to that.
     
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  14. colognehornet

    colognehornet Well-Known Member

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    Money owed is money owed and is a quite different theme from any future relationship.
     
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  15. yorkshirehornet

    yorkshirehornet Well-Known Member

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    I cant believe a business man with any integrity would renege on debts contracted for and owed whilst trying to do a favoured future deal.....

    Maggie would be shocked...
     
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  16. superhorns

    superhorns Well-Known Member

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    Maggie would be have horrified at the thought of handing money over, that the HoL's committee assessed was not legally due, to another party without fruitful negotiations. Your approach is more like Gordon Brown's who paid the GPs extra cash then asked them to be more flexible without any success whatsoever.
     
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  17. Leo

    Leo Well-Known Member

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    I do agree that there was little opposition to the holding of a referendum. It was believed it would settle the issue and end the bitter debate - what is your view on how well that has turned out?
    I am not sure that it is correct to argue that MPs chose to abdicate their responsibility. As I said above there seems to have been a belief that a referendum would give us a fairly decisive result and people would accept it and move on. Unfortunately the result was so close it has probably made things worse. I do agree that Cameron promised the referendum result would be respected - and he gave no caveats. Parliament has felt obligated to follow that line so has approved the result overwhemingly even though most MPs were not in favour individually. Good for them in a sense.
    To say though that the referendum result must be carried out to preserve our democracy is a stretch. Democracy is not under threat here. At most one referendum result could be under threat. If there were a second referendum that itself would also be democratic. It will not happen because MPs are not prepared to stand up and say the referendum has caused unexpected chaos and was ill though out and demanded a new and better constructed referendum
     
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  18. superhorns

    superhorns Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure anybody knew how the referendum would turn or discounted a close result. A majority is all it takes and the result should stand. I disagree on the importance of respecting the result, if Brexit was denied there be a complete lack of faith in our democratic system by the majority who voted for Brexit.

    After May's poor gamble on the last election I am not at all surprised the way things have turned out. The remainers will obviously enjoy highlighting the difficulties but most EU negotiations are sorted at the last minute so hang on!!

    I'm off to the airport soon, my wife is giving my grief for still being on my computer so need to dash to save my skin!!

    :emoticon-0101-sadsm
     
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  19. Leo

    Leo Well-Known Member

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    "The antics of desperate rabid remainers" are just meaningless words. Substitue brexiters and it would be as easy to use the same phrase against a group someone else disliked. Do you not honour and give credit to people who have opinions that differ from your own if they are honestly held? I do. I think you are 100% wrong in wanting brexit but would never consider using language that suggested you were anything other than championing a cause you support. You simply have a very different perspective to me but that is what makes the world turn.
    For some the best deal possible is to stay in the EU. I am one of them. Any other deal in my book is awful. There is no such think as a good brexit deal. If you accept that this is what I believe do you not realise that it is logical for me to want to end brexit? If I could do so through Parliament it would be in a democratic institution. It is only brexiters who define democracy as being a single referendum.
    I actually agree that no money or other matters should be concluded until everything is concluded - that was agreed at the outset of talks
     
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  20. Leo

    Leo Well-Known Member

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    No - you don't . If you leave a club on terms that are not wholly amicable you certainly do not pay outstanding dues while you are still embroiled in a dispute. Of course you would end up paying what is legally due but you would not just pay up and then ask what the club would agree to for you.
     
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