Eclipse, 7th July

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Because they want to achieve something that hasn't been achieved in 40+ years winning a triple crown and the plan was always to give him a break and to bring him back for his tilt at the st leger plus camelot has proven himself from a mile up to 12f where as frankel hasn't if he is truely is the greatest flat horse ever bred then he has to be able to smash fields apart from a mile all the way up to 12f at the moment he is just a brilliant miler
 
I wonder if they will put the race on the big screens at Silverstone for me? <laugh> I guess they will have Serena Williams on instead.
 
I have to say I'm of the same mind set as RV, why criticise Sir Henry and co for the standard of opposition the other trainers are putting in front of the horse? He can only beat what is put in front of him and that is out of Sir Henry's control.

I'm sure I read that Sir Henry said that he felt Sandown was too stiff a 10f track for a first attempt at the distance and that he'd rather have a try over a slightly easier track.

I'm more concerned about the fact that he will be off the track for almost two months between York and Ascot: there are no Group races in the UK available to him over 10f in that time and over a mile he would only have the G2 Joel Stakes at Newmarket. His only viable option elsewhere in Europe would be the G1 Prix du Moulin over 1 mile (Sept 16) or the G1 Irish Champion Stakes (8 Sept) over 10f.
 
Im not criticising Sir Henry im just having my opinion that i believe the whole point of keeping a brilliant miler at 3 in training is to actually find out how far his talent goes just how good he is and part of that is seeing if he is at brilliant at 10f as he is at 8f in the Sussex stakes excellabration won't be running we are most likely gonna have Frankel His pacemaker and maybe 1 or 2 others taking him on it will be a farce of a race where as think how excited we would all be if Frankle was running in the Eclipse or had ran in the Prince Of Wales at Royal Ascot.Think of the buzz.
 
I understand why people want to see him do more, and I respect it. At the end of the day though, we don't pay the bills and have no say in the matter.

I think we have a cultural problem in this country where nothing is ever good enough, we always want to see more and when we don't get it we criticise.

The notion of "the greatest horse" is such a movable feast. What defines "greatest"? Is it the most number of wins? An unbeaten record? Is it the fastest? Is it the horse who wins at all distances? Is it the sprinter? The miler? The middle-distance horse? The stayer? The hurdler? The chaser? Everyone has different criteria.
 
SYT is going into quarantine later this month. He's scheduled to start covering mares in Australia in September, the Eclipse will very likely be his last race.
 
Beacause they want to start his stud career off which means the eclipse is his last chance to race in europe before he goes into quarrentine and the eclipse is the first race chance the classic generation get to take on the elders its the first chance of the year we get to see 3 yr olds vs 4 yr olds.Frankel should be running in the Eclipse if they have any intention of leaving him with the legacy his talent deserves.
 
The fact is that by sending him to Goodwood they know that they will not have to face SYT, winning that race again is going to be a better way of prepping him for the Autumn campaign over 10 furlongs.

I would love to see him in the Eclipse but I don't mind them waiting with him, just a shame I can't get to the day at GG when he runs.
 
I think everyone would accept that Frankel is one of the best milers of all time, if not the best. There is only Brigadier Gerrard and Dubai Millennium, that I could put forward as possible alternatives. For me personally any doubt was removed by his scintillating performance at Ascot this year. I agree that, other than the clock, he can only beat what's put in front of him and unless something can give him a race, we will never know just how good he is, particularly beyond a mile. The fact that HC wanted to avoid the stiff Sandown track for Frankel's first attempt at 10f is understandable but also confirms that he could be vulnerable. At the end of the day, Henry does what's best for the horse and I respect that more than anything.

Any talk of Frankel being the best racehorse ever is pretty meaningless to me. Who is to say the best miler of all time is any better than the best sprinter of all time, or the best middle distance performer of all time, or the best stayer of all time. If they ran against each other then no doubt the outcome would be determined by the distance and conditions of the race. They should all just be respected as being Great in their own right and we can feel privileged to have witnessed any horse who fills any/all of those categories, or indeed is anywhere close to it.

I'm sure everyone would love to see a scintillating performance from Frankel over 10f but the opposition may not be up to the task of bringing this about. I personally would have loved to have seen Frankel v So You Think, whether it be over 8 or 10f, because I believe he is the best yardstick we have; a horse who consistently clocks fast times, win or lose. And especially as AOB has eventually listened to the previous trainer (by his own admission) meaning we may even see So You Think to better effect.
 
I'll put this up on the Ask Princess thread too, but if anyone is interested in seeing behind the scenes at Banstead Manor Stud (where Frankel was born and will stand as a stallion) you can watch this video.

The first part is a preview of the Eclipse, but if you skip through to the 20min mark you can see the likes of Dansili and Oasis Dream, as well as Kind and Midday.
 
What price would Frankel be in the Eclipse? 1/4, 1/5? I know he needs to 'prove himself over 10f', and I, like many others, cannot wait for him to do it, but the argument that there are better horses for him to beat at the distance is as leaky as a sieve. Excelebration is a better horse than any of them according to Timeform and the BHA and yet Frankel has battered him 5 times. The only horse in the world, other than Frankel, who is better than Excelebration is Black Caviar. I agree that it would be fantastic to see him hack up in the Eclipse but I doubt we are going to learn much more about his abilities when he does try 10f. We will learn that he stays but I doubt we will learn just how good he really is.

As for going abroad, I don't really see the point. What is there for him to beat in France? Cirrus Des Aigles and . . . ? And in America? Errm . . . ? The Champion Stakes, as it was last year, will likely be a stronger test than anything else with the possible exception of the Arc. People should remember that horses quite often go abroad when they aren't good enough to win here. As an example, I'm sure Excelebration would have run in the Sussex rather than the Moulin if Frankel wasn't around as one example. There is a very good reason why the likes of Zarkava and Zenyatta, and now Frankel haven't travelled and that is because they can win the races they want to win. It is those that fall a little short of the very top who have to travel in search of opportunities. Peter Moody said as much in regard to Black Caviar. Champions tend to stay at home. There are obvious races for him in the UK so they should run him here and we should stop complaining and go and watch him and thank our lucky stars that we can. <cheers>
 
I understand both sides.


I do agree with Famous though- the Ascot win by ELEVEN LENGTHS just about proves he is the greatest miler possibly ever seen.


What a perfect way to sign off and step up to 1m 2f.


He looked absolutely ready for it at Ascot- he settled, he travelled, he quickened, he stayed.

He will run in the Juddmonte at York by the sounds of it- Cecil thinks the track will suit him. The problem is of course, who the **** will turn up to face him? No Camelot, I can't see Nathaniel or Sea Moon as they are soft ground mile and a half horses. St Nicholas Abbey is outpaced over 10f.


Personally I'd have considered Eclipse/Juddmonte/Champion Stakes. Just a bloody shame they couldn't round it off with a crack at the Arc. If he won that, immortality beckons.



I'd honestly have a crack at a mile and a half. I think he could be utterly scintilating.
 
I think he's going to be better over 10f. Genuinely. Being at York on the 22nd August is the most important date this Summer. It could be something truly exceptional.

I expect him to be able to travel at near to Mile pace, sustain that for 10f, and still finish with the same devastating kick. They won't see which way he went.
 
Why step up in trip and risk putting a blemish on his CV. Similar to the Quevega and Mares Hurdle scenario every year at Cheltenham. Regardless of the reason Frankel is an absolute freak of nature and in my opinion the best racehorse we have ever seen.
Camelot may well achieve immortality by winning the St Leger but once again it appears not to be a vintage year, time will tell on that score when the 3yo's take on their peers.

Re; SO YOU THINK, I see that there is noticeable drift today..........any theories?
 
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