Duckenfield

[Ivan Dobsky]

Not saying what you say is out of the question but you're not taking into account that the high up's at SYP were/are part of the establishment and were fully aware of the smear campaign against the city of Liverpool by the then government and the knowledge they would get away with the lies for the reasons in my earlier post.

But we've reached a massive milestone with Duckenfield's admission and I'm happy about that.

He's still trying to deflect by saying the fans were responsible too. A bit like a rail signaller who causes a fatal crash by forgetting that a late -running train is in the path of freight train then blaming the passengers for making that train late in the first place by there being too many of them trying to get on. Or that captain of the Concordia blaming passengers for contributing to the listing of the ship by panicking to get off after he'd run it onto the rocks.

Difference is, in these latter two examples you'd never get the whole government machine supporting them.

 

[Ivan Dobsky]

have to say that I think the evidence even before Duckenfield gave testimony are the most telling as to his, and the police as an organisation's state of mind before the events unfolded. His barrister was trying to highlight previous incidents of bad behaviour of Liverpool fans such as bunking into the '86 final and so forth: trying create a narrative of 'they were always up to it'. Well so be it. As Tobes has said, there was a pre-conceived, fortress-type attitude of not letting the scum get in, and herding the fans about prisoners in a massive jail.

I think the counsels for the families should let him and his team continue this - it highlights why a so-called professional was blinded to actual events that unfolded before him and was his paid responsibility to deal with because he couldn't/wouldn't entertain any other possibilities than malignant mob behaviour that he was going to prove he could stand up to.

No wonder there's bits he wants to forget.

 

[Ivan Dobsky]

have to say that I think the evidence even before Duckenfield gave testimony are the most telling as to his, and the police as an organisation's state of mind before the events unfolded. His barrister was trying to highlight previous incidents of bad behaviour of Liverpool fans such as bunking into the '86 final and so forth: trying create a narrative of 'they were always up to it'. Well so be it. As Tobes has said, there was a pre-conceived, fortress-type attitude of not letting the scum get in, and herding the fans about like prisoners in a massive jail.

I think the counsels for the families should let him and his team continue this - it highlights why a so-called professional was blinded to actual events that unfolded before him and was his paid responsibility to deal with because he couldn't/wouldn't entertain any other possibilities than malignant mob behaviour that he was going to prove he could stand up to.

No wonder there's bits he wants to forget.

 

[Super G Ted'inho]

have to say that I think the evidence even before Duckenfield gave testimony are the most telling as to his, and the police as an organisation's state of mind before the events unfolded. His barrister was trying to highlight previous incidents of bad behaviour of Liverpool fans such as bunking into the '86 final and so forth: trying create a narrative of 'they were always up to it'. Well so be it. As Tobes has said, there was a pre-conceived, fortress-type attitude of not letting the scum get in, and herding the fans about prisoners in a massive jail.

I think the counsels for the families should let him and his team continue this - it highlights why a so-called professional was blinded to actual events that unfolded before him and was his paid responsibility to deal with because he couldn't/wouldn't entertain any other possibilities than malignant mob behaviour that he was going to prove he could stand up to.

No wonder there's bits he wants to forget.

I would say that the police should have been better prepared if previous circumstances highlighted a record/reputation for such behaviour. Obviously, we know it was BS but I've always said similar for the BS drinking hooliganism argument; even if true, the police's job is to control it and they failed! Quite simply, those sort of argument just don't stack up IMO. the fact that they are all BS just cements it.

 

[johnsonsbaby]

I'm glad the truth is finally coming out from Duckenfield - who's just denied he's been coached for the inquests to stress his inexperience as match commander - but has admitted that he breached his duty of care to ensure the safety of Liverpool fans.

 

[Page_Moss_Kopite]

Why, who would it have saved? Altough the sideshow would've been over a lot sooner. The simple fact that everyone, especially from Liverpool, like to ignore is that if thousands of drunken fans without tickets hadn't been marching on the entrances intent on gaining entry the decision to open the gate wouldn't have needed to be made. And who is to say what would have happened had he stopped them gaining entry, would the same fans from Hysel a few years earlier have turned meekly away? I don't think so, certainly isn't my memory of LFC fans in the 80's.
A tragedy for sure, but most of the blame lies with the ticketless fans, I think that should be remembered before you absolve them from the guilt they share

Just found this,

"You have nothing to back up what you say at all, you even admit openly that you havn't bothered to do one bit of research to back up your beliefs (though I think you have, found something you didn't like and, like all bigotted people, denied the truth). You simply expect everyone to agree with your beliefs, even if they can be proven wrong. Which they have been conclusively.

As you can see, that makes you quite clearly a bigot."

http://www.not606.com/threads/manch...der-investigation.291517/page-10#post-7617469

Oh the sheer irony of your words.

You are the definition of the word bigot.

 

[Super G Ted'inho]

Just found this,

"You have nothing to back up what you say at all, you even admit openly that you havn't bothered to do one bit of research to back up your beliefs (though I think you have, found something you didn't like and, like all bigotted people, denied the truth). You simply expect everyone to agree with your beliefs, even if they can be proven wrong. Which they have been conclusively.

As you can see, that makes you quite clearly a bigot."

http://www.not606.com/threads/manch...der-investigation.291517/page-10#post-7617469

Oh the sheer irony of your words.

You are the definition of the word bigot.

...

 

[johnsonsbaby]

Just found this,

"You have nothing to back up what you say at all, you even admit openly that you havn't bothered to do one bit of research to back up your beliefs (though I think you have, found something you didn't like and, like all bigotted people, denied the truth). You simply expect everyone to agree with your beliefs, even if they can be proven wrong. Which they have been conclusively.

As you can see, that makes you quite clearly a bigot."

http://www.not606.com/threads/manch...der-investigation.291517/page-10#post-7617469

Oh the sheer irony of your words.

You are the definition of the word bigot.

Mate didn't I say yesterday that even with the truth coming out there'd still be people ignoring it and pushing the lies, and lo and behold one turns up. Absolutely disgraceful, disrespectful comments from him as well. Bigot doesn't even start to describe him - oh the irony indeed

 

[Big Ern]

I would say that the police should have been better prepared if previous circumstances highlighted a record/reputation for such behaviour. Obviously, we know it was BS but I've always said similar for the BS drinking hooliganism argument; even if true, the police's job is to control it and they failed! Quite simply, those sort of argument just don't stack up IMO. the fact that they are all BS just cements it.

so, because the police were there it absolves everyone of blame or responsibilty for acting like a **** and causing trouble at the back so they could get in for free. What a cop out and total buck pass of any responsibility of fans for their own actions, who no doubt were still antagoniosing the police long past the first death until the full scope of what had happened became knowledge. I went to football matches in the 80's I can remember quite vividly exactly what the crowds were like, they certainly weren't like a bunch of primary school kids on a day out like is being made out, this was during the worst years of 'hooliganism' and they certainly weren't an orderly bunch as is shown from the CCTV from outside the ground, there's also plenty of statements from lots of people there who said there were hundreds of ticketless fans, some determined to cause bother to get in. But you want to whitewash that away much like the police tried to whitewash their own culpability
The actions of the fans coupled with the incompetence of the police and the inadequate facilites is the cause, you can blame the police and the ground as much as you like, but without the actions of the fans that day none of it would have happened. If the police have to face up to their actions I don't see why the fans don't as well


And despite it all happening, what happened at Wembley a few months later? 1,000's of ticketless LFC fans descended on Wembley.

 

[Page_Moss_Kopite]

Mate didn't I say yesterday that even with the truth coming out there'd still be people ignoring it and pushing the lies, and lo and behold one turns up. Absolutely disgraceful, disrespectful comments from him as well. Bigot doesn't even start to describe him - oh the irony indeed

Yeah, but I just thought a slap in the face with a big wet fish would wake him up from his 26 year old stupor.

 

[Red Hadron Collider]

Right. I've ****ing had enough of that ****. Get the ****er banned NOW.

 

[Page_Moss_Kopite]

Will somebody please explain to the moron that police failings outside the ground/turnstiles caused a crush against the perimeter wall and the turnstiles which was on the verge of causing fatalities and that those in the crush had only one way to go when Duckenfield opened the gates.

 

[Big Ern]

Just found this,

"You have nothing to back up what you say at all, you even admit openly that you havn't bothered to do one bit of research to back up your beliefs (though I think you have, found something you didn't like and, like all bigotted people, denied the truth). You simply expect everyone to agree with your beliefs, even if they can be proven wrong. Which they have been conclusively.

As you can see, that makes you quite clearly a bigot."

http://www.not606.com/threads/manch...der-investigation.291517/page-10#post-7617469

Oh the sheer irony of your words.

You are the definition of the word bigot.

Well i did actually, but you just simply ignred it, it was an eyewitness account and a statemnt made to the inquiry by sets of Forest fans that says they met at least one group of LFC fans without tickets who were going to cause bother to get in as it usually worked. I guess you ignored it as it doesn't fit with your version of the truth.

Will somebody please explain to the moron that police failings outside the ground/turnstiles caused a crush against the perimeter wall and the turnstiles which was on the verge of causing fatalities and that those in the crush had only one way to go when Duckenfield opened the gates.

that's it, absolve everyone outside causing the crush of any of the responsibility for their actions, despite them being asked to stop doing it, they didn't. It's so much easier to look elsewhere for the blame, quite typical these days to pass your personal social responsibilities to someone else. "It wasn't my fault, someone should have stopped me".

 

[Super G Ted'inho]

so, because the police were there it absolves everyone of blame or responsibilty for acting like a **** and causing trouble at the back so they could get in for free. What a cop out and total buck pass of any responsibility of fans for their own actions, who no doubt were still antagoniosing the police long past the first death until the full scope of what had happened became knowledge. I went to football matches in the 80's I can remember quite vividly exactly what the crowds were like, they certainly weren't like a bunch of primary school kids on a day out like is being made out, this was during the worst years of 'hooliganism' and they certainly weren't an orderly bunch as is shown from the CCTV from outside the ground, there's also plenty of statements from lots of people there who said there were hundreds of ticketless fans, some determined to cause bother to get in. But you want to whitewash that away much like the police tried to whitewash their own culpability
The actions of the fans coupled with the incompetence of the police and the inadequate facilites is the cause, you can blame the police and the ground as much as you like, but without the actions of the fans that day none of it would have happened. If the police have to face up to their actions I don't see why the fans don't as well


And despite it all happening, what happened at Wembley a few months later? 1,000's of ticketless LFC fans descended on Wembley.

Funny how it didn't happen the season before in the exact same circumstances though eh? What was the difference? Oh, there was a competent commander on duty who recognised the dangers of opening that gate so put precautions in place beforehand. If its happened before then its not a unforeseen occurrence. If its not unforeseen then its negligence. The Police force were in attendance to protect the public and ensure order, would you say they succeeded in their mission?

 

[Tobes]

so, because the police were there it absolves everyone of blame or responsibilty for acting like a **** and causing trouble at the back so they could get in for free. What a cop out and total buck pass of any responsibility of fans for their own actions, who no doubt were still antagoniosing the police long past the first death until the full scope of what had happened became knowledge. I went to football matches in the 80's I can remember quite vividly exactly what the crowds were like, they certainly weren't like a bunch of primary school kids on a day out like is being made out, this was during the worst years of 'hooliganism' and they certainly weren't an orderly bunch as is shown from the CCTV from outside the ground, there's also plenty of statements from lots of people there who said there were hundreds of ticketless fans, some determined to cause bother to get in. But you want to whitewash that away much like the police tried to whitewash their own culpability
The actions of the fans coupled with the incompetence of the police and the inadequate facilites is the cause, you can blame the police and the ground as much as you like, but without the actions of the fans that day none of it would have happened. If the police have to face up to their actions I don't see why the fans don't as well


And despite it all happening, what happened at Wembley a few months later? 1,000's of ticketless LFC fans descended on Wembley.

Go and read the Taylor report, together with the reams of other information that's out there concerning the events of that day and educate yourself.

When you've done that, try having the stones to come back and apologise for your ignorant, idiotic posts.

Embarrassing

 

[Page_Moss_Kopite]

Well i did actually, but you just simply ignred it, it was an eyewitness account and a statemnt made to the inquiry by sets of Forest fans that says they met at least one group of LFC fans without tickets who were going to cause bother to get in as it usually worked. I guess you ignored it as it doesn't fit with your version of the truth.

So you think back in the 80s two sets of fans would say "hi, we want to tell you we haven't got tickets and we plan to storm the gates"?


Get ****ing real mate.

 

[Ivan Dobsky]

so, because the police were there it absolves everyone of blame or responsibilty for acting like a **** and causing trouble at the back so they could get in for free. What a cop out and total buck pass of any responsibility of fans for their own actions, who no doubt were still antagoniosing the police long past the first death until the full scope of what had happened became knowledge. I went to football matches in the 80's I can remember quite vividly exactly what the crowds were like, they certainly weren't like a bunch of primary school kids on a day out like is being made out, this was during the worst years of 'hooliganism' and they certainly weren't an orderly bunch as is shown from the CCTV from outside the ground, there's also plenty of statements from lots of people there who said there were hundreds of ticketless fans, some determined to cause bother to get in. But you want to whitewash that away much like the police tried to whitewash their own culpability
The actions of the fans coupled with the incompetence of the police and the inadequate facilites is the cause, you can blame the police and the ground as much as you like, but without the actions of the fans that day none of it would have happened. If the police have to face up to their actions I don't see why the fans don't as well


And despite it all happening, what happened at Wembley a few months later? 1,000's of ticketless LFC fans descended on Wembley.

Please explain how the quotation of Forest fan(s) equates to '1,000's' of ticketless, drunken Liverpool fans at either Hillsborough or Wembley. Where is your evidence? I offered the Hillsborough cctv tapes, the HSE and the Taylor Enquiry: you offer hearsay that doesn't even add up to close to the '1,000's' that you state, even if it were true.

You're a lazy, selective ****er when you're peddling ****, aren't you? What's up - realising that you've been had by a fairy-tale foistered unto dim-witted morons like yourself by a manipulating authority? Can't face the reality?

Keep sucking The Man's cock, peasant. That's all you're worth.

 

[Page_Moss_Kopite]

Well i did actually, but you just simply ignred it, it was an eyewitness account and a statemnt made to the inquiry by sets of Forest fans that says they met at least one group of LFC fans without tickets who were going to cause bother to get in as it usually worked. I guess you ignored it as it doesn't fit with your version of the truth.

that's it, absolve everyone outside causing the crush of any of the responsibility for their actions, despite them being asked to stop doing it, they didn't. It's so much easier to look elsewhere for the blame, quite typical these days to pass your personal social responsibilities to someone else. "It wasn't my fault, someone should have stopped me".

How the **** can you stop moving forward when thousands behind you are joining the queue?

Have you ever been to Hillsborough?, the police stand at the top of the hill and can either stop people joining their Queue to ease the flow or do **** all and stand idly by, guess which option SYP chose that particular day?

 

[Tobes]

It's truly astonishing that even when presented with the definitive truth from the mouth of the man who was controlling the operation that day, mouth breathers like Miggins here can still peddle the line that 'drunken, ticketless yobs' were somehow the root cause of the problem.

It just shows just how gullible the average dim witted Brit is ffs.

 

[johnsonsbaby]

la

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Here's a picture that shows where the fans were directed to once in the stadium. Packed into two pens behind the goal, note how pens on either side of those two are relatively empty. Had the fans been given access to those pens, no crush would have occurred whether the fans were drunk, sober, ticketless or with tickets, it would have made no difference, there were too many let in to too small a space to contain them. Those fans had no control whatsoever as to where they ended up. The capacity for the whole end was 100 under capacity on the day so there was ample room to take all that turned up and even more should more have turned up. Had there been some control by those whose job it was to direct fans to safety, everybody would have got home that day.

Unless anyone can prove that fans were more drunk and there were more without tickets on that day than any other match involving Liverpool fans, then talking about drink and lack of tickets is idiotic.