The easy answer to this is to state that the ‘pattern’ race system did not exist when Arkle raced. In the National Hunt game, many of the top races are handicaps, so the likes of Denman will run in the Hennessy Gold Cup (a handicap) and the Cheltenham Gold Cup. As far as I am aware, Hoof It had never contested anything of higher grade than the Stewards Cup (a handicap) before stepping into pattern race company. That would mean that he was being upgraded and up to that point he was a handicapper.
You mean bar the 2 lengths he was off the winner in the Nunthorpe? So you could say upgraded handicapper or a fast finisher in the Nunthorpe on previous outing.
QM....Perhaps you can name me some other 3yos in Europe who have 5 G1s to there name other than Frankel and Dream Ahead?
For what its worth I believe Hoof It is a top class sprinter. I would rate him as the 3rd best in Europe this season, only behind Dream Ahead and Deacon Blues
Dream Ahead has done nothing wrong on the track. Multipe Group One winner, rounded off nicely with a defeat of Goldikova. We shouldn't be shooting him down, should we? Very rarely do we find the 'perfect' horse. He had a bad performance in France a couple of starts back, but do we therefore forget all of his excellent wins? He's hardly been a flash in the pan and whilst I do think Strong Suit might have edged him in the Breeders Cup this season. From a bloodstock point of view, he reminds me a lot of Canford Cliffs- not fancily bred but was very smart on the racecourse. Best of luck to them both.
I think the presence of Frankel has made one or two of us slightly greedy in what we expect from a top class a racehorse....
In the Nunthorpe and the Haydock Sprint Cup, Hoof It was being upgraded from handicap company. He was a gelding in the Nunthorpe, I bet he was still a gelding in the Haydock Sprint Cup. So he was also still an upgraded handicapper. Sir Alex Ferguson has lived in Cheshire for over twenty years, but he is still Scottish. Why not start an argument about how Margot Did must be the Champion sprinter because she beat Hoof It by two lengths at York whilst Dream Ahead only beat him by a nose and a head?
QM....There is a massive difference between form over 5 furlongs and form over 6. That's why I was strongly against Hoof It in the Nunthorpe, he is a much better 6f horse. The best 5f sprinter in Europe for me, is Prohibit
Without checking I suspect that there are none because Danedream only has three Group 1 wins. You had to put the “3yos” rider in to eliminate Goldikova from your argument because you have been on this forum on countless occasions rubbishing her achievements and you could not bring yourself to have her mentioned. So Bated Breath, beaten half-a-length and a nose by Dream Ahead gets no recognition because he did not win either of those races but did finish in front of Hoof It in one of them. When they hire you as official handicapper, we can all start cleaning up backing the horses that ran well in defeat last time because you won’t rate them. Given that you think that Prohibit is the “best 5f sprinter in Europe”, they must be really poor if Hoof It is the “3rd best in Europe”.
I think Dream Ahead was, in the main, placed to perfection by his trainer old boy Simcock. The old adage that training horses is only half the game but adept placing, in the right races, is just as important is certainly true here. Great achievement to win 5 Group 1’s in just 13 and a half months. I would say though that Billy Buick’s claim that ‘on his day, he could beat anything put in front of him’ is somewhat presumptuous and probably a candidate for ‘misguided comment of the year’. Very good, admirable and tough horse yes but this statement seems to be going a bit far, methinks! Meanwhile, I wish Dream Ahead all the best in the old breeding shed.
QM....Why would I need to worry about Goldikova, Dream Ahead has already proved his superiority over Goldikova, despite hanging all over the track. Funnily enough at the end of Goldikova's 3yo season she had only 2 G1s to her name. Give me an older horse then who had 5 G1s by the end of there 3yo season? It is a very elite group Dteam Ahead has joined, there are not many horse's who have 5G1s at the end of there 3yo season. The likes of Frankel, Sea The Stars, Zarkava, and Rock Of Gibralter spring to mind in recent seasons. As for this sprinting debate Bated Breath was easily beaten in the July Cup, Dream Ahead cruised by him, in the Sprint Cup Dream Ahead was hanging all over the place, and thays why Bated Breath got as close as he did. Dream Ahead hanging hampered Hoof It. Had Dream Ahead not hampered him, Hoof it would have won. DA was very lucky to win that day, though there is no doubt he is the best sprinter in Europe when he is at his best. I would place Bated Breath 4th best over 6f. As for Prohibit, the Kings Stand is generally the strongest 5f race in Europe and it is the most valuable and he won that. He was unlucky against Margot Did as he got boxed in, and would have won with a clear run. Not sure what happened at Longchamp, but you can forgive a 5f horse one below par run. Either way there isn't a standout horse over 5. Just out of interest as you mock my choice of Prohibit, who would you chose as the best 5f horse?
"I think Dream Ahead was, in the main, placed to perfection by his trainer old boy Simcock....." SBC: I'm one for sure, but I really don't think David Simcock is an 'old boy', even when joking (about 39, I do believe). Pretty young, I'd say?
What a fantastic stallion prospect – a horse that cannot run in a straight line. He has done that on three or four occasions out of nine races. They should get you in to do their publicity! So Dream Ahead is the best sprinter in Europe when you chose to ignore the occasions that do not suit your argument. Prohibit did not win the “most valuable” 5f race in Europe as that was the Prix de l’Abbaye, which was won by Tangerine Trees (previously victorious in a Listed race at Beverley). It seems that when it suits your argument, you can forgive Prohibit and anybody else a bad performance. I would not nominate a best five furlong horse in Europe as none of them showed any consistency.
QM.....I am not trying to promote him as a stallion I frankly couldn't give 2 hoots as to wether he is a success or not at stud. Were discussing his ability on the track, and yes he might have hung alot, but he still managed to win, that just shows how much talent the horse had. He is the best sprinter in Europe when he isn't hanging all over the track, I'm sure if they hadn't retired him and kept him in training, he would improve alot. Despite the fact he's won alot of top races, he is still very immature. I think you will find the Kings Stand Stakes is the most valuable, and highest profile 5f sprint in Europe. If you don't believe me check the prize money. So your happy to mock the fact I chose Prohibit as the best 5f horse in Europe, yet you can't offer an alternative horse yourself, says it all realy
QMII/KS: Did not realise this little article on Dream Ahead's retirement would bring 33 responses! Found comments very interesting and it is quite amazing how we can all differ in our views on this or that racehorse. You are both quite right in the fact that Dream Ahead found difficulty in running a true line, and seemed to run green in even this his last season. In the July Cup (in review of video) he raced close to the near rail and then came out a bit and squeezed through, and I mean squeezed, so he really could not run green. He was very fortunate in the Haydock race. So he did have a couple of races where LadyLuck played a big hand? Don't think he had any business taking-on Frankel in a mile event, but again, that's just a personal opinion. All in all Dream Ahead had a good record as a racehorse, and his connections certainly did not mess around with mickey mouse events? Maybe he'll walk the straight line at stud, sure he will. Again, hope his progeny do well........................
Kings’ Stand Stakes 2011 – Prohibit 170,310 Prix de l’Abbaye de Longchamp 2011 – Tangerine Trees 171,420 By your reasoning, the ‘highest profile’ 6f sprint in Europe must be the Golden Jubilee, which is worth more to the winner than either of the shorter races. It netted Society Rock 227,080. That just eclipses Dream Ahead’s 226,840 for the July Cup. Prohibit is so good that he does not even feature in the current International Classification – he is rated less than 120, which will not have improved after the Abbaye. Dream Ahead and Deacon Blues, at 120, are the only European sprinters on the list at all. That is how mediocre our sprinters have been in 2011.
QM....The Kings Stand was worth 170k to the winner, were as the Abbaye was only worth 147k. I did not say it was the most high profile because of the prize money, I just decided to mention that the King Stand is the most valuable 5f race in Europe aswell as being the most high profile. Why do you think the Aussies regularly come over for the King's Stand. Your probably right the Golden Jubilee is the top 6f sprint in Europe, but DA didn't line up in that race, that is hardly his fault, be was trying a mile in the St James's Palce which didn't work out. He has since won the next 2 6f G1 sprints, beating Society Rock, and winning more prize money for the season
I don't now how the locals rate the importance of the sprints, but from this side of the world, there are only two sprints in Europe that hold any great interest, The King's Stand and the Golden Jubilee. The July Cup and the Abbaye don't really rate. In fact if you ask most race goers in Australia about the French race, they'll barely know anything about it. The July Cup is concidered a consulation race. Only our perception, probably not the reality as far as Europeans concerned. I should imagine that the French rate their race on top.
Cyc, The Darley July Cup is supposedly part of the Global Sprint Challenge, but clearly that initiative is as redundant as the various other ones doing the rounds. I would expect that most folks would struggle to name the races that form the QIPCO British Champions’ Series without looking them up (I would). Black Caviar’s connections will be really quaking in their boots when they read these numbers, the official BHA ratings for Britain’s speedsters: Britain’s Outstanding Sprinters 2011 120* Deacon Blues 120* Dream Ahead 119 Bated Breath 119 Hoof It 117 Society Rock 116* Genki 116* Prohibit 115* Margot Did 115 Monsieur Chevalier 115* Tangerine Trees 114 Hitchens 113 Kingsgate Native 113 Masamah 111 Delegator * = Rating before most recent race
Cyc: I think the Aussies have got it wrong there. The July Cup and the Abbaye take some winning, many good sprinters have failed in both. If the July Cup (very much Group 1, incidentally) is a consolation race, how come the Australian sprinters have a poor record in it? The big sprint at Haydock over 6f is also most definitely worthy of world recognition? Erm, has Bart put a flea in your ear?............
