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Dr Strangelove (how I learned to stop worrying and love Boris)

Discussion in 'Sunderland' started by Deletion Requested1, Sep 21, 2021.

  1. DH4

    DH4 Well-Known Member

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    Why didn't Labour vote against the reintroduction of some Covid restrictions just last week then?
     
    #1261
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  2. The Exile II

    The Exile II Well-Known Member

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    Because they've given up on opposing and are waiting for the Tories to hand power to them.
     
    #1262
  3. Saf

    Saf Not606 Godfather+NOT606 Poster of the year 2023

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    I'm not a Tory, though :emoticon-0136-giggl
     
    #1263
  4. DH4

    DH4 Well-Known Member

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    <laugh>
     
    #1264
  5. The Exile II

    The Exile II Well-Known Member

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    They've fallen into the same trap Corbyn did. He was measuring for Downing Street curtains while Johnson was going out and working for the win. The same will happen to Starmer and co.
     
    #1265
  6. Sunderpitt

    Sunderpitt Well-Known Member

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    Unless of course it is best for the nation... far right tories opposed Bonko's Covid19 measures, Labour supported them as being ideological about a pandemic is ludicrous.
    The tories were against the NHS cos they have never supported the redistribution of wealth, in this case taxes to pay for the health of the less well off. Rich tories will always have private health insurance, they did then and do now.

    GPS still retain a great deal of independence, a legacy of opposing the formation of the NHS, although of course their main income is derived from the NHS.

    The GPs 'union's were not keen to give vaccinations until they got £25 per jab (mostly performed by practice nurses). For the boosters they are getting £15 a shot.
     
    #1266
  7. DH4

    DH4 Well-Known Member

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    <laugh><laugh><laugh><laugh><laugh>
     
    #1267
  8. The Norton Cat

    The Norton Cat Well-Known Member

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    True. But you can't deny that Willink was a Conservative and Beveridge was a Liberal. And the coalition government of 1944 approved it. Politicians of all types had a hand in the creation of what we now recognise as the NHS.
     
    #1268
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  9. DH4

    DH4 Well-Known Member

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    The Tories don't mind the redistribution of taxes into their friends and families pockets though.
     
    #1269
  10. The Exile II

    The Exile II Well-Known Member

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    'filling their mouths with gold' was the quote about Doctors and the NHS, I believe.
     
    #1270
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  11. The Norton Cat

    The Norton Cat Well-Known Member

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  12. Sunderpitt

    Sunderpitt Well-Known Member

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    #1272
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2021
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  13. The Norton Cat

    The Norton Cat Well-Known Member

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    No, by balanced I mean it doesn't show clear bias or continue to promulgate inaccurate Labour propaganda. That Conservative MPs voted against it is historical fact. That Conservative and Liberal MPs were involved in fashioning it is historical fact.
     
    #1273
  14. As is the chronic underfunding, head-in-sand burying and down-the-road can-kicking by parties of all persuasions over several decades.
    The prime example of how our Parliamentary system of governance is simply not fit for purpose.
     
    #1274
  15. Sunderpitt

    Sunderpitt Well-Known Member

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    What resistance was there to the formation of the NHS?
    By Lily Foster
    While there are different views on specifics, the NHS now has strong cross-party support and is very popular with public. Nigel Lawson famously said "the closest thing the English have to a religion" and David Cameron spoke passionately about it. But it was not like this. There was a fiece battle to get it established.In 1946 the Doctors voted 10:1 against.

    Churchill's Tories voted against the formation of the NHS 21 times before the act was passed, including both the Second and Third reading. Churchill sincerely believed that the NHS was a"first step to turn Britain into a National Socialist economy." To compare the NHS to Nazism in 1946 shows the extremity of vies at the time.

    Despite the apparent consensus, opposition to the establishment of the National Health Service (NHS) existed. Many groups, including charities, churches and local authorities didn't want the government taking control of hospitals. There was a particularly bitter battle with the London County Council over the control of hospitals in the capital. Even more serious was the opposition of doctors who disliked the idea of becoming employees of the state. Doctors were in an extremely powerful position, as without them the National Health Service (NHS) could not operate, and the government was forced to make a number of compromises. General Practitioner (GP) surgeries remained private businesses that could be bought and sold, and the NHS effectively gave these practices contracts to provide health care. Only the most senior doctors in hospitals (consultants) were allowed to continue private treatment. Similar compromises were worked out with dentists. Aneurin Bevan conceded these points in order to make the NHS work, but he was not happy with them. In a very famous speech Bevan made this very clear by stating that his Tory opponents were "lower than vermin."

    That is why no amount of cajolery, and no attempts at ethical or social seduction, can eradicate from my heart a deep burning hatred for the Tory Party that inflicted those bitter experiences on me. So far as I am concerned they are lower than vermin. They condemned millions of first-class people to semi-starvation. Now the Tories are pouring out money in propaganda of all sorts and are hoping by this organised sustained mass suggestion to eradicate from our minds all memory of what we went through. But, I warn you young men and women, do not listen to what they are saying now. Do not listen to the seductions of Lord Woolton. He is a very good salesman. If you are selling shoddy stuff you have to be a good salesman. But I warn you they have not changed, or if they have they are slightly worse than they were.

    Speech on 3 July 1948 at the Bellevue Hotel, on eve of the entry into force of the National Health Service.

    Once Bevan had published his Bill on the health service in 1946, one former chairman of the BMA described Bevan's proposals in the following terms:

    "I have examined the Bill and it looks to me uncommonly like the first step, and a big one, to national socialism as practised in Germany.

    The medical service there was early put under the dictatorship of a "medical fuhrer" The Bill will establish the minister for health in that capacity."

    Comparing a politician to Hitler (in 1946!!) shows how strongly the BMA felt about the issue and how widespread opposition was from Doctors:

    Between 1946 and its introduction in 1948, the British Medical Association (BMA) mounted a vigorous campaign against this proposed legislation.In one survey of doctors carried out in 1948, the BMA claimed that only 4,734 doctors out of the 45,148 polled, were in favour of a National Health Service.

    please log in to view this image

    News Chronicle, Tues Aug 7, 1945. Doctors planned to trip up Bevan's NHS on the day the atom bomb was dropped.

    News Chronicle

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    David Low, 'Open Wide Please. This might hurt a little' Evening Standard (July, 1948)

    Evening Standard
     
    #1275
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  16. The Exile II

    The Exile II Well-Known Member

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    It's a very useful political football.
     
    #1276
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  17. The Norton Cat

    The Norton Cat Well-Known Member

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    So Bevan attacked the Conservative party, who had some members who backed the creation of a health service, but not any of the other bodies that opposed it? Seems to me like he was playing politics.
     
    #1277
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  18. Sunderpitt

    Sunderpitt Well-Known Member

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    Well you should hear what he called the BMA, who were ably supported by the tories..

    Yes it was very much political... you could say a matter of life or death for many!
     
    #1278
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2021
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  19. Well,that's certainly true,but my problem with it all is the very short term nature of the thinking and decision making.
    All the Politicians look at is the next 5 years.
    Since the virus hit us,we have been inundated with Ministerial and NHS briefings justifying their decision making based on " the expert modelling being carried out by our scientific advisors".
    Which,in my mind at least,begs the question....years ago,pre-pandemic,...couldn't this degree of modelling have provided information of the exponential growth in demand for services likely to be placed on the NHS....and also to anticipate some kind of global plague ( although I realise I do employ hindsight here)...as a worst case scenario ( in vogue at present!)...to provoke Government to at least perform the number one function of the State....to protect its' people.
    If Sunak can authorise billions upon billions to help us through this,couldn't previous regimes have authorised the same to ensure the NHS was adequately provided for in terms of hospitals,ambulances,equipment,GPs',caring facilities together with all the properly qualified people to work the services and ensure they delivered as and when the need arose. To answer my rhetorical question......short term vote catching is the answer and,if I go back through my adult years and no further back,
    Messrs,Wilson,Heath,Callaghan,Thatcher,Major,Blair,Brown and Cameron can hang their,in some cases posthumous,heads in utter,utter shame.
    In my view,they have all contributed towards the current complete disaster for the British people we are currently experiencing by failing to change,and thus complying with,a political system, which any right thinking, reasonably intelligent individual can see is simply not fit for purpose.
     
    #1279
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  20. The Norton Cat

    The Norton Cat Well-Known Member

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    "Raucous voiced and politically poisoned" although he seems to have weighed in with the Hitler comparions too. The BMA had been opposing it since at least 1943 though, so it wouldn't have mattered who was in government, they didn't want to know. Although they've obviously changed their tune now.
     
    #1280

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