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Do we even need Ozil ?

Discussion in 'Arsenal' started by PINKIE, Oct 4, 2017.

  1. ToledoTrumpton

    ToledoTrumpton Well-Known Member

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    You mean all the candidates to replace Ozil?
     
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  2. lazarus20000

    lazarus20000 Well-Known Member

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    You're being a little hard on yesterdays team. They clearly were the better side and if their finishing was better, would have won. But you could see that the players hadn't played much together. On another day we would have won comfortably.
     
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  3. cini65

    cini65 Well-Known Member

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    I think you'll find it was arsenal's attack without Ozil, Sanchez or Lacazette. So basically it wasn't arsenal's attack. Or midfield. Or defence. Or keeper. Out of those XI it was definitely Ozil that was the one significant loss, none of the other 10. And that's because Ozil is top class. He's so top class that he gets marked so well that he goes missing half the time.

    #sogoodhesinvisible
     
    #43
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  4. afcftw

    afcftw Well-Known Member

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    If Ozil is missing half the time then in the half the time he shows up he is so incredible that he has the chances created and assists stats better than anyone else in half the time.

    He gets over the top criticism in my opinion. He isn't going to add a lot defensively and isn't going to be the all action player people seem to want him to be, but he Ian incredible at what he does and without him we would be far worse off. He has more assists than any player in the league since he joined us, has created more chances than any player in the league this season and has all sorts of other records for chances created and assists.

    If we need other areas of our game to be better we should be looking at other players and positions, not Ozil.
     
    #44
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  5. ToledoTrumpton

    ToledoTrumpton Well-Known Member

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    I didn't think I was hard on them, because I agree with what you wrote, but the point I am making is that, as we saw, it is entirely possible that an entire team can be shut down by the opposition, let alone one player. How come the "2nd string" get a pass when they don't click as a team, but when Ozil doesn't click in a team, or he gets marked out of the game, he is the one that is blamed for, "Going Missing"?

    I'm also really surprised that you don't seem to understand the principle of a player being marked out of the game. Kane and Eriksen were largely missing in the Spurs game against us, but credit was (rightly) given to our defense for that. So it seems odd that when one of our players gets shut down, we deny that the principle of being shut down exists. Why is that?
     
    #45
  6. BobbyD

    BobbyD President

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    Your team you put out against cologne were probably as good as the southampton side i.e. not very good so we are not expecting fireworks with them.

    As for ozil when hes good hea great. Whens hes poor then you are better off with a player like coquelin at least they will work hard and try to win the ball.

    Why does ozil get grief? Because hes meant to be your star player, he doesnt look like he works that hard and he gets muscled off easily (not his fault) and he wants 300k a week.
     
    #46
  7. ToledoTrumpton

    ToledoTrumpton Well-Known Member

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    You do realize that Coquelin and Ozil don't play the same position and have different responsibilities? Are you suggesting that we would be better with Coquelin in the front 3?
     
    #47
  8. StanDMan

    StanDMan Well-Known Member
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    Ozil & Sanchez don't need you anymore is more appropriate I guess.
     
    #48
  9. blukyt

    blukyt Well-Known Member

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    Like a lot of us are saying, Ozil - the player is not the problem. The system is not set up for him to thrive. The current system will be better with a more dynamic playmaker. We are so dependent on Ozil's creativity that once he's marked out ("missing"), we struggle. We need a playmaker physically stronger, a runner with the ball, a shooter/finisher, half of Ozil's vision will even do nicely. If the likes of Ramsey and Xhaka were of better quality, Ozil being marked out of a game will make room for them to capitalize on this.

    Once again it is the system not the player. Ideally I'd like us to build around him which will cost money and also need a lot of defensive work, however this is Arsene's Arsenal - we don't do money or defence like that.
     
    #49
  10. ToledoTrumpton

    ToledoTrumpton Well-Known Member

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    I know what you are saying, but does a player like that exist? I know there used to be that tough guy defensive midfielder that was also creative, but I'm not sure I could name one in world football these days. Every time someone starts to look like he is the real deal, he seems to fade away again.
     
    #50

  11. BobbyD

    BobbyD President

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    right now, KDB, Coutinho, Salah, Messi, Suarez in the past, Robben, Neymar, argue sanchez can do it, Pogba, etc etc
     
    #51
  12. blukyt

    blukyt Well-Known Member

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    For a few years I have been clamoring for Coutinho as he knows this league. But for me right now I would break the bank for Dybala. KDB is doing it for City. We've been linked with Fekir and Lamar. And don't get me wrong I am not talking about a DM. A more robust and athletic AM. Specifically one that can take players on, shoot and have decent vision. He will win a lot fouls in dangerous areas. Take opposition players out of the game. Dybala is ideal for me.
     
    #52
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  13. ToledoTrumpton

    ToledoTrumpton Well-Known Member

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    I think De Bryne is obviously pretty good, but I really am not certain he is much stronger on the ball than Ozil. I think he is just surrounded by more talent in that City side. If I accept Piskie's argument about Ozil, for me De Bryne is just Ozil, in the environment he needs in order to shine. Coutinho for me is exactly like Ozil as well, he is creative, but he can get shut down in games if the opposition play him correctly.

    I can't really comment on Dybala, because I don't think I have ever seen him play, but if you can come up with only one name that makes your strategy work is that really a good game plan to go with?

    As fans we forget that even the greats sometimes get played out of games. Even Bergkamp had bad games, Henry had scoring droughts. Zidane played games where he didn't run the game. It happens.

    What the good teams do, is if you mark Messi, Ronaldo or Bergkamp out of the game, they have enough other great players that will have so much more space, and time, that Iniesta, Benzma, or Henry murder you instead.

    I mean you must have notice that Iwobi looks like the real deal every time he is on the pitch with Ozil, but he looks distinctly average every time he plays instead of Ozil?
     
    #53
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2017
  14. blukyt

    blukyt Well-Known Member

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    Dybala is not the only name I mentioned mate. He is just who I personally would prefer right now. I have high hopes for Iwobi and Reese Nelson to be this type players for us.

    You think teams do not try to mark the likes of Coutinho out. Because of that ability to take players on, he can still be effective in the sense that the other team would have to be on their job, or he makes them look stupid or win fouls all day. Of course everyone has off days, but that is not what we are on about. We are talking about default ability.

    Optimum Ozil will cost money as it is dependent on strengthening in front of him and behind with suffecient quality. Can we realistically do that??
     
    #54
  15. diegocosta197

    diegocosta197 Member

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    Of course Arsenal need Ozil but there is talk of Mourinho taking a fancy. If Ozil & Sanchez leave the club the Gunners can forget about titles for the foreseeable future imo :emoticon-0128-hi:
     
    #55
  16. ToledoTrumpton

    ToledoTrumpton Well-Known Member

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    I don't know. I just think you have a team, and it is very difficult sometimes to pick out where the strength of the team is. People think that they can pick out when Ozil, Xhaka and Ramsey have bad games, but the game is so much more complicated than that.

    I just know we look like a different team every time Ozil is on the pitch. Everyone else seems to play better, and I just can't mark that down to coincidence. Coutinho is a good player, but he doesn't make everyone else look better the way Ozil and De Bryne do IMO.

    I think Ozil is exactly like Beckham was. He is more of a strategic player than a tactical player. If he is in your team he makes the opposition make a game plan to deal with him, and that gives you an advantage regardless of his performance. I don't think Pogba, Sanchez or Coutinho are the same category of player, in that sense.

    I think those players are rare (and getting more rare) and they are what we have been missing in the last 15 years. I would break the bank to keep him, because I am not sure, we have the money to get another player like that.

    I hate to say it but Eriksen is like that. And now teams are shutting him down, Spurs haven't got a clue, because the rest of the team are completely average.
     
    #56
  17. blukyt

    blukyt Well-Known Member

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    Ozil had a quality night
     
    #57
  18. PINKIE

    PINKIE Wurzel Gummidge

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    He was brilliant last night. Let's hope he can put in a performance like that against Utd at the weekend.
     
    #58
  19. winifred122

    winifred122 Well-Known Member

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    If I were to be cynical, I would expect that he would put it on for Pedro the Fisherman. That may prove to be our advantage on Saturday, whilst said fisherman will be rubbing his hands with glee at the thought of what he could get for free this Christmas or in the summer
     
    #59
  20. ToledoTrumpton

    ToledoTrumpton Well-Known Member

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    Maybe, but it wouldn't surprise me if he has a behind the scenes agreement with Wenger and the club. I think I see a difference between Ozil's attitude and Sanchez's, but it may just be my hopeful imagination.
     
    #60

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