Off Topic Death Penalty

[Deleted #]

It's nothing to do with terrorists 'beating' anyone. But to imply that their activities don't have any effect on our lives is nonsense.

Your reasoning regarding *****philes vs terrorists is curious. Nobody gets on a plane concerned about *****philes. Nobody travels to the Middle East and is concerned about *****philes. It's not *****philes that murdered over a hundred people in Paris. It's not *****philes that cause armed police to be deployed across Europe because of public safety concerns.

I am not considering myself nor my immediate family and what I would want if they were hurt in any way and I made that plain in my earlier post. I am merely discussing the wider picture of what the State should do in cases of grave crimes.

I maintain my opposition to the death penalty in general for the reasons I've given. I am not in any way sympathetic to *****philes at all - you don't have a monopoly in having children. However, they don't wake up one day and choose to be *****philes, and remember that *****philia is classed as a psychiatric disorder. It is that reason that sets them apart from the vast majority of terrorists, as well as the fact that they don't murder large numbers of people indiscriminately (regardless of how awful their crimes are). *****philia fortunately affects few people in their daily lives. Terrorist activities affect all of us, and any one of us could be a victim tomorrow.

If a lawyer was to prove to a court that his terrorist client was suffering from a mental disorder then that safeguard should remain so that the State does not put to death mentally ill individuals. I never suggested that principle should be removed.

As for miscarriages of justice, well yes that does concern me, but as I stated (though you seem to have missed this), for me the greater public good trumps that, such is the extent of the threat we face - particularly as the deterrent effect would be great for many on the fringes, considering the amount of pre-planning that takes place. Yes, there are always those fanatics who don't care and would love to martyr themselves but you're never going to deter them anyway.

Hope that's cleared things up for you.

A little bit, but it's all about you and not the good of the state. It's like you are trying to speak on behalf of everybody, you say terrorism affects all of us, it doesn't affect me. I have never once changed my plans because of terrorism.

The bit in bold shows you are fixated on your argument and only looking at it from one perspective, that's all I'm trying to show you. Yes, nobody gets on a plane concerned about *****philes, but nobody worries about terrorists kidnapping their kids off the streets either.

There's arguments for both, but to make it out like yours is the superior version and to keep backing it up by saying the vast majority of the public will agree with you, is just wrong, IMO. I could say that, it wouldn't make it true though, would it?

*****philia directly affects a lot more people in this country than terrorism.

Also your argument of capital punishment is seriously flawed. You are concerned about the miscarriages of justice (rightly so), but would allow it for terrorism because the greater public good trumps that? Well then you have to allow for a lot of other crimes to be deserving of the death penalty as it would be for the greater public good as well. I can guarantee most people will want *****philes and murderers executed, just as much as terrorists.

 

[Kifflom!]

"It's all about you and not the good of the state" No. If you read my earlier posts (which you couldn't have) you can see that like most people if anything happened to my family I'd want the perpetrators executed. But that doesn't make it right.

"It's like you are trying to speak on behalf of everybody" Don't be daft. It's just my personal opinion. To say that terrorism doesn't affect you personally in your day to day life may be true but it has a huge effect on society as a whole. Every time that we walk through airport security it effects us, including the restrictions on what we can take on the plane. You obviously don't visit Egypt regularly as I do because I'm a diving instructor. There are huge changes that have taken place there over the years because of the threat of terrorism. The level of threat here in the U.K is at the highest level - that means it's a matter of time.

"..make it out like yours is the superior version" What? Anyone can disagree with me - it's a forum. I even acknowledged that. The death penalty is one of those classic emotive issues and there are sound arguments for and against.

"*****philia directly affects a lot more people in this country than terrorism" It depends on what "affect" means and the extent of it. However, I know what you're getting at. But you clearly haven't taken on board my objections to executing *****philes based on the fact that they are suffering from a psychiatric condition - and didn't deal with it in your response.

"...you have to allow for a lot of other crimes to be deserving of the death penalty as it would be for the greater public good as well." No I don't. It's my personal view that terrorist prosecutions and the penalties if found guilty should be an exception to my reservations about miscarriages. I wouldn't draw the line anywhere else. Yes, I'm uneasy about it but I'm also firmly in favour of it because it sends a message that if you even plot against this country you will be executed. Even if only a handful of people think twice then that would save lives.

We are in the middle of a war. This war is idealogical and even though this doesn't have an effect on you in your life right now it WILL have an effect on your children if we don't win it. As for your "guarantee most people will want *****philes and murderers executed", now it's you that's "speaking on behalf of everybody" but you may be right. It doesn't change my view and it doesn't change my assertion that I believe we shouldn't execute sick people but we should execute terrorists.

 

[Deleted #]

"It's like you are trying to speak on behalf of everybody" Don't be daft. It's just my personal opinion. To say that terrorism doesn't affect you personally in your day to day life may be true but it has a huge effect on society as a whole. Every time that we walk through airport security it effects us, including the restrictions on what we can take on the plane. You obviously don't visit Egypt regularly as I do because I'm a diving instructor. There are huge changes that have taken place there over the years because of the threat of terrorism. The level of threat here in the U.K is at the highest level - that means it's a matter of time. If you or someone close to you is caught up in that you may change your outlook.

"..make it out like yours is the superior version" What? Anyone can disagree with me - it's a forum. I even acknowledged that. The death penalty is one of those classic emotive issues and there are sound arguments for and against.

"*****philia directly affects a lot more people in this country than terrorism" It depends on what "affect" means and the extent of it. However, I know what you're getting at. But you clearly haven't taken on board my objections to executing *****philes based on the fact that they are suffering from a psychiatric condition - and didn't deal with it in your response.

"...you have to allow for a lot of other crimes to be deserving of the death penalty as it would be for the greater public good as well." No I don't. It's my personal view that terrorist prosecutions and the penalties if found guilty should be an exception to my reservations about miscarriages. I wouldn't draw the line anywhere else. Yes, I'm uneasy about it but I'm also firmly in favour of it because it sends a message that if you even plot against this country you will be executed. Even if only a handful of people think twice then that would save lives.

We are in the middle of a war. This war is idealogical and even though this doesn't have an effect on you in your life right now it WILL have an effect on your children if we don't win it. As for your "guarantee most people will want *****philes and murderers executed", now it's you that's "speaking on behalf of everybody" but you may be right. It doesn't change my view and it doesn't change my assertion that I believe we shouldn't execute sick people but we should execute terrorists.

No it is not and hasn't been at it's highest level for about 8 years

No, I don't visit Egypt nor do I have any urge to go there either. That's Egypt though, I couldn't give a **** what happens with that country.

To say all *****philes suffer from a psychiatric condition, is absolute bollocks. I know of a couple blokes locked up for this crime and they were just dirty bastards and it's as simple as that. Lived normal lives, worked and had families etc. Knew exactly what they were doing as they done everything to silence the girls. They shouldn't be allowed to hide behind a mental illness. Mental illness isn't a get out clause for people and shouldn't be used as such either.

It's almost as though you are sympathetic to *****philes

 

[ValleyGraduate12]

Don't let posts become personal lads.

 

[Deleted #]

Don't let posts become personal lads.

Fair enough, I don't think it's fair that you delete my comment but leave his saying the exact same thing. It's your board though, I suppose, and you can run it whichever way you choose.

I'll toddle back off to my board now.

 

[ValleyGraduate12]

Fair enough, I don't think it's fair that you delete my comment but leave his saying the exact same thing. It's your board though, I suppose, and you can run it whichever way you choose.

I'll toddle back off to my board now.

Give me a chance 83. I decided to read the entire thread over first.

 

[Kifflom!]

[EDIT: Valley, I can deal with him. No need to delete unless you want to. Your call.]

OK - three points:

1: Trying to get a rise out of me by saying I'm sympathetic to *****philes won't work. Particularly as this is a direct quote from a post of mine earlier:

"Failing that, lock *****philes up for as long as it takes to protect the public. If it's life then it's life. I have zero sympathy for *****philes"

So why don't you read my posts before spouting drivel?

2: I used Egypt as an example because you implied that I was lying about having Muslim friends. That didn't work either. You may not care about Egypt and that's fine but my comment was made in the context of you raising the question of terrorism not affecting you. That's completely selfish in my view when you look at the global picture. "I'm alright Jack" won't make the problem of international terrorism go away.

3: Lastly, your point about me stating *****philes are suffering from a psychiatric condition is "bollocks" has also ended up with you looking foolish. It's been recognised as a psychiatric condition since the 19th Century and is acknowledged as such in a number of scientific papers including this one:

http://dsm.psychiatryonline.org/doi/book/10.1176/appi.books.9780890425596

...and by the World Health Organisation here:

http://www.who.int/classifications/icd/en/GRNBOOK.pdf

Now, that's your three points demolished so I suggest you do indeed toddle off back to your board. I have no problem with people disagreeing with my views on the death penalty. It's an emotive issue. But do try to get your facts right. Do some research and it'll broaden your horizons - it's free, you know.

 

[Deleted #]

[EDIT: Valley, I can deal with him. No need to delete unless you want to. Your call.]

OK - three points:

1: Trying to get a rise out of me by saying I'm sympathetic to *****philes won't work. Particularly as this is a direct quote from a post of mine earlier:

"Failing that, lock *****philes up for as long as it takes to protect the public. If it's life then it's life. I have zero sympathy for *****philes"

So why don't you read my posts before spouting drivel?

2: I used Egypt as an example because you implied that I was lying about having Muslim friends. That didn't work either. You may not care about Egypt and that's fine but my comment was made in the context of you raising the question of terrorism not affecting you. That's completely selfish in my view when you look at the global picture. "I'm alright Jack" won't make the problem go away.

3: Lastly, your point about me claiming *****philes are suffering from a psychiatric condition is "bollocks" has also ended up with you looking foolish. It's been recognised as a psychiatric condition since the 19th Century and is acknowledged as such in a number of scientific papers including this one:

http://dsm.psychiatryonline.org/doi/book/10.1176/appi.books.9780890425596

...and by the World Health Organisation here:

http://www.who.int/classifications/icd/en/GRNBOOK.pdf

Now, that's your three points demolished so I suggest you do indeed toddle off back to your board. I have no problem with people disagreeing with my views on the death penalty. It's an emotive issue. But do try to get your facts right. Do some research and it'll broaden your horizons - it's free, you know.

1) Wasn't trying to get a rise out of you. It's simply how you are coming across. Deal with it

2) I implied you were lying about having Muslim friends? No idea what you are talking about.

3) It's not a mental illness and nobody will ever convince me otherwise. Yes, you see few (minority) *****philes, who are very much still like a child themselves in behaviour and mental awareness. No doubt about that. I'd agree they have a mental illness.
Most are just dirty bastards though, who know exactly what they are doing and I find it really annoying that these scum bags would have their lives spared because of people like you crying 'mental illness'

 

[Kifflom!]

1: Really? A mod getting involved suggests otherwise.
2: Now you're being naughty. Your comment: "You actually said you have Muslim friends" coupled with ROFL smileys earlier give the opposite impression.
3: OK. I merely posted links to scientific papers from the WHO. What the hell do I know?

As much as I'm enjoying this 'debate' it's a bit like kicking a small dog now. You must bring more to the conversation, otherwise you look a bit out of your depth. Deal with that.

 

[ValleyGraduate12]

No need to delete the thread if it is civil which it is.

This an important topic that should be discussed more often by politicians.
Given the way things are, if a referendum was called I think the majority would call for the return of the death penalty for certain crimes.

 

[Kifflom!]

Agreed Valley. It's very much a personal opinion that I would execute terrorists but not *****philes because I don't think a civilised country should execute mentally ill people. I respect other posters' views on this as it's such an emotive issue but I happen to think they are wrong. Our friend from oop north clearly has a problem with this concept and doesn't read comments before making a tit of himself. Great fun for me though

 

[Deleted #]

Kifflom talking about people making tits of themselves

1) The mod deleted my comment about changing your outlook. You said the same words to me you fool, which he has also moderated.

2) Where is this comment about Muslim friends? I can't see it on this thread.

3) The word mentally ill, needs to revised for *****philes. I know mentally ill people and it's disgusting that *****philes also get lobbed into that category.


Now, stop running to the mod like a little child looking for acceptance. It's not a good look.

 

[Kifflom!]

I didn't "run to the mod" - Valley came here on his own. It's what mods do. Do you like being repeatedly pwned?

Your views are your views but they fly in the face of accepted psychiatry, Doctor.

You also seem to be losing your temper.

I'm not sure why you can't accept that we have different views on what is a very emotive topic. Do try to be a little bit more grown up will you?

 

[Deleted #]

I didn't "run to the mod" - Valley came here on his own. It's what mods do. Do you like being repeatedly pwned?

Your views are your views but they fly in the face of accepted psychiatry, Doctor.

You also seem to be losing your temper.

I'm not sure why you can't accept that we have different views on what is a very emotive topic. Do try to be a little bit more grown up will you?

I'm not losing my temper?

It's kind of funny watching you, you are so sure about yourself, it's staggering.

'Valley, I can handle him" Why did you say it like that? (You know how it sounds). Believe me, everybody will be able to see you are just as much hard work as me. Valley hasn't regarded me as a problem, to my knowledge. Or was that you misreading a situation and assuming you were right about everything as per?

I've accepted we have different views.

I hope that one day you can see things from other people's points of views and learnt to accept that Kifflom isn't always right. You obviously aren't a bad guy, just a little bit misguided perhaps...

 

[Nosugarman1]

I was going to post my view but now it has descended into a slanging match I'm not going to bother.

 

[Terror ball]

Did you know that Peadophiles are much more likely to be left handed?
Medical Science has not figured out why this should be the case yet....but it seems likely that when your brain is forming in the womb, at the stage where it is decided whether you will be left handed or right handed, during this process there can be an unfortunate impact on the development of the part of the brain which decides your future sexual predilections.

I agree with Kiff on this.
Lock them away for life....I'm all for chemical castration as well.

I don't like the death sentence full stop actually.
I don't want my children to grow up in that kind of society.

 

[Deleted #]

I was going to post my view but now it has descended into a slanging match I'm not going to bother.

I'm stepping away, to be fair, I think Kifflom has as well, we've agreed to disagree, that's the end of it. This isn't my board, mate. I respect that so please crack on and get it back on thread

 

[Kifflom!]

Good. You seem to look for confrontation rather than debate and it's tiresome. Saying I'm "sympathetic to *****philes" was part of that approach and completely unnecessary.

The fact that I am able to be firm in my beliefs and support them in what I hope is an articulate way is part of who I am and isn't me being "sure of myself" or disrespecting others' views. You have acknowledged that you're "hard work" and I agree with you for once.

I have repeatedly stated on this thread that this subject has strong arguments on both sides. But the bottom line is the facts on my side of the argument are supported by science. I may not like it, but those are the facts. You have an unsupported opinion, but I accept you're entitled to it. In fairness, the majority of the public would probably agree with you.

I'm glad you're stepping away because we were going round in circles and you've already succeeded in discouraging posters from contributing. Well done.