Davy Russell
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A lot of nonsense on this thread so far.
Regardless of the size, punching any animal in the back of the head because it's being disobedient is a disgusting act of animal cruelty.
This was not an act of horsemanship, this was plain and simply a jockey losing his temper.
I do agree with Beefy though, that once he's served his punishment, it shouldn't be one of these things you never hear the end of.
I know it's a different sport and situation, but the boos for Justin Gatlin after he won the 100m final annoyed me. I think when someone serves there ban people need to move on and forget about it.
Regardless of the size, punching any animal in the back of the head because it's being disobedient is a disgusting act of animal cruelty.
This was not an act of horsemanship, this was plain and simply a jockey losing his temper.
I do agree with Beefy though, that once he's served his punishment, it shouldn't be one of these things you never hear the end of.
I know it's a different sport and situation, but the boos for Justin Gatlin after he won the 100m final annoyed me. I think when someone serves there ban people need to move on and forget about it.
if it wasnt for the fact that 100% of athletes are on drugs, id say once a drugs cheat, always a drugs cheat
not sure what this has to do with punching an unruly horse tho
not sure what this has to do with punching an unruly horse tho
Discipline and Abuse
These days, animal abuse has become an important social issue. Opinions on the matter range from those who believe animals are merely property and they can do whatever they like to them to the extreme views held by some members of PETA.
I personally have been attacked for stating that the use of a whip is acceptable under certain circumstances...and for saying I don't carry one all of the time. So, some people draw the line in different places.
However, there may well be some good rules of thumb to follow on the matter.
Equine Psychology
To understand where the line should be, one has to understand horses. I had far too many dealings with a woman who believed (and convinced others) that horses had such thick skins they barely felt it when you beat them. She never convinced me, but she did teach many children to beat horses.
Horses are, in fact, very sensitive to physical contact of all kinds. Indeed, much of the communication between rider and horse occurs using the seat and legs. Horses respond quickly to physical discipline and physical reward. (If you really want to make your horse happy, try gently scratching the base of the mane about halfway down the neck—they love that.)
Additionally, horses have a surprisingly good memory. Studies have proven that horses remember people who treat them well and people who treat them badly. I have personally witnessed a horse definitely showing signs that he remembered that 'So-and-so always has treats'...when the person concerned hadn't been there for several months. Because of this, horses are almost as vulnerable to trauma as humans are.
For example, somebody I know had a multi-stakes-winning Standardbred gelding who turned into a beautiful hunter. He had had a long and highly successful career (he was only gelded for medical reasons), but then had a bad wreck on the track that resulted in the sulky landing on top of him. That horse never went in harness again; he was simply unwilling to be put into any kind of a carriage. Can you blame him?
Horses also do not grasp change easily. A horse who is moved to a different stall may continue to try to go to the old one for months.
Therefore, a horse who has been abused is likely to retain psychological scars for an extensive period of time.
The second key aspect of equine psychology is that horses do not consider long term consequences. Horses are aware only of immediate consequences. Corrections, therefore, need to be applied immediately and quickly. If you wait until you get back to the barn, your horse will have forgotten what he did wrong. Any form of discipline that relies on the horse understanding non-immediate consequences is ineffective and could be considered abuse.
The Vital Importance of Release in Horse Training
From 'immediate consequences' comes a vital and central aspect of horse training.
When we ask a horse to do something, we use, for the most part, physical contact either directly through the seat and legs or indirectly through the rein. The voice is also important (carriage drivers often rely very heavily on the voice as the only contact they have with the animals is through the rein).
As an example, if a rider wants a horse to trot, she will close her legs onto the horse's sides and shift her seat slightly forward. As soon as the horse trots, however, she relaxes her legs again. She may keep the inside leg on the horse a little because that helps the horse's balance, but the second the horse trots, the aids are stopped. This is release.
Release, quite simply, is that when the horse does what you want, you stop hassling him about it. Horses that are not given release will generally learn to ignore the cues. This is called desensitization, and is common in horses ridden by beginners. This tends to lead to an escalation of ever louder cues and can end up with the whip coming out.
When applying discipline, remember to release. Too often you'll see a rider—sometimes an advanced competition rider—hit a horse for refusing and then just keep hitting it, no matter what it does. (Half the time the refusal was their fault anyway.)
Not only does hitting a horse 8 or 10 times carry with it the risk of injuring the animal physically or mentally, but it completely violates the principle of release. As soon as the horse does what you ask, the pressure needs to ease. A horse that is being beaten is not given a chance to do what the rider wants, and is just being harassed and pressured.
Sometimes, giving a horse a tap with the whip is warranted, but remember that it is pressure and has to be followed by release. For example, if a horse will not go forward, the technique should be squeeze, tap, then squeeze again. This gives the horse a fair chance to do what you want when you ask nicely.
Did the Horse Actually Do Anything Wrong?
One very important matter for the line is that a horse should only be disciplined if it actually did something wrong.
Coming back to the same individual who gave the 'horses have thick skins' line, this person also believed that if a horse was scared, the best way to resolve it was to make the horse even more scared of you.
Hitting a horse that is scared, anxious, or in pain is always abuse. A horseman learns to determine what is going on. For example, if a horse has always cantered off before and suddenly starts bucking, it is probably not being naughty. More likely something is bothering it.
One common problem that always needs to be considered is that when horses are trained their backs actually change shape. A green horse who has just been backed has little muscle on what is called the 'top line'. A fit horse can have quite a lot. Many times, an inexperienced trainer will discover that their green horse suddenly starts playing up about two months into work. They may think, or even be told, that the horse is going through a 'testing' phase—when often the inevitable physical changes have resulted in a saddle that fit perfectly when the horse was backed not fitting any more. Many professional trainers use saddles with adjustable trees for just this reason.
A horse should not be beaten if it is scared, but rather be worked with to help it get over its fear. I have seen horses react with fear to the strangest things, such as walking into a box stall, or a horse that would jump anything as long as it didn't have a ditch under it. Such apparently irrational fears are often the result of something in the animal's past. The horse that won't go into a box stall may have been, at some point, trapped in one. The horse that spooks at ditches may have been stuck under a fence with a ditch under it. I have also encountered genuine phobias in equines, but most of the time there's some triggering incident. Horses that are scared of particular things can be desensitized with time and patience. In many cases, though, the horse that is beaten for being scared is no longer afraid of whatever it was afraid of, but of its handler. Such animals need retraining to teach them to trust humans again.
Horses should also not be beaten if they are reacting the way they are because of pain and ill-fitting tack. Sudden misbehavior by a horse that is normally an angel is 90% of the time caused by physical discomfort of some kind. Of course, knowing your horse and how they normally behave is key.
Is There A Better Way?
Also, consider whether there is a better way to get your point across to the animal.
For example, in the case of chronic misbehavior or a horse that is throwing tantrums (I've seen both green horses and older horses that have not been well trained throw actual tantrums), it is often much more effective to work the horse until the misbehavior ceases and then immediately end the schooling session.
If a horse is refusing to do a specific maneuver and pain and discomfort have been eliminated, then it is much more effective to school that maneuver last and end the session as soon as it has been done correctly, until the horse does it right off.
Ending the schooling session once the horse has done what you want is, of course, the ultimate 'release'.
For problems on the ground, the voice and body language tend to be more effective than the whip, although I have used a lunge whip as a barrier to convince a horse of the concept of 'personal space'.
Finally, if the misbehavior is running away or 'taking off', then the use of any kind of physical discipline tends to be counter-productive. Some horses run away because of discomfort - running away can be a symptom of over-bitting. If the horse is doing it to be a brat, then I have found only one effective solution. That solution is to keep the horse running. When it tries to stop, keep it running. Don't let it stop until you say. It usually only takes two or three applications of that for the horse to realize that running off with you isn't much fun. Hitting a horse that runs off will often be used by it as an excuse to run off again.
In Summary
In summary, hitting a horse can be discipline or abuse. Some people believe that any use of the whip is abuse. However, the good rules of thumb follow:
These days, animal abuse has become an important social issue. Opinions on the matter range from those who believe animals are merely property and they can do whatever they like to them to the extreme views held by some members of PETA.
I personally have been attacked for stating that the use of a whip is acceptable under certain circumstances...and for saying I don't carry one all of the time. So, some people draw the line in different places.
However, there may well be some good rules of thumb to follow on the matter.
Equine Psychology
To understand where the line should be, one has to understand horses. I had far too many dealings with a woman who believed (and convinced others) that horses had such thick skins they barely felt it when you beat them. She never convinced me, but she did teach many children to beat horses.
Horses are, in fact, very sensitive to physical contact of all kinds. Indeed, much of the communication between rider and horse occurs using the seat and legs. Horses respond quickly to physical discipline and physical reward. (If you really want to make your horse happy, try gently scratching the base of the mane about halfway down the neck—they love that.)
Additionally, horses have a surprisingly good memory. Studies have proven that horses remember people who treat them well and people who treat them badly. I have personally witnessed a horse definitely showing signs that he remembered that 'So-and-so always has treats'...when the person concerned hadn't been there for several months. Because of this, horses are almost as vulnerable to trauma as humans are.
For example, somebody I know had a multi-stakes-winning Standardbred gelding who turned into a beautiful hunter. He had had a long and highly successful career (he was only gelded for medical reasons), but then had a bad wreck on the track that resulted in the sulky landing on top of him. That horse never went in harness again; he was simply unwilling to be put into any kind of a carriage. Can you blame him?
Horses also do not grasp change easily. A horse who is moved to a different stall may continue to try to go to the old one for months.
Therefore, a horse who has been abused is likely to retain psychological scars for an extensive period of time.
The second key aspect of equine psychology is that horses do not consider long term consequences. Horses are aware only of immediate consequences. Corrections, therefore, need to be applied immediately and quickly. If you wait until you get back to the barn, your horse will have forgotten what he did wrong. Any form of discipline that relies on the horse understanding non-immediate consequences is ineffective and could be considered abuse.
The Vital Importance of Release in Horse Training
From 'immediate consequences' comes a vital and central aspect of horse training.
When we ask a horse to do something, we use, for the most part, physical contact either directly through the seat and legs or indirectly through the rein. The voice is also important (carriage drivers often rely very heavily on the voice as the only contact they have with the animals is through the rein).
As an example, if a rider wants a horse to trot, she will close her legs onto the horse's sides and shift her seat slightly forward. As soon as the horse trots, however, she relaxes her legs again. She may keep the inside leg on the horse a little because that helps the horse's balance, but the second the horse trots, the aids are stopped. This is release.
Release, quite simply, is that when the horse does what you want, you stop hassling him about it. Horses that are not given release will generally learn to ignore the cues. This is called desensitization, and is common in horses ridden by beginners. This tends to lead to an escalation of ever louder cues and can end up with the whip coming out.
When applying discipline, remember to release. Too often you'll see a rider—sometimes an advanced competition rider—hit a horse for refusing and then just keep hitting it, no matter what it does. (Half the time the refusal was their fault anyway.)
Not only does hitting a horse 8 or 10 times carry with it the risk of injuring the animal physically or mentally, but it completely violates the principle of release. As soon as the horse does what you ask, the pressure needs to ease. A horse that is being beaten is not given a chance to do what the rider wants, and is just being harassed and pressured.
Sometimes, giving a horse a tap with the whip is warranted, but remember that it is pressure and has to be followed by release. For example, if a horse will not go forward, the technique should be squeeze, tap, then squeeze again. This gives the horse a fair chance to do what you want when you ask nicely.
Did the Horse Actually Do Anything Wrong?
One very important matter for the line is that a horse should only be disciplined if it actually did something wrong.
Coming back to the same individual who gave the 'horses have thick skins' line, this person also believed that if a horse was scared, the best way to resolve it was to make the horse even more scared of you.
Hitting a horse that is scared, anxious, or in pain is always abuse. A horseman learns to determine what is going on. For example, if a horse has always cantered off before and suddenly starts bucking, it is probably not being naughty. More likely something is bothering it.
One common problem that always needs to be considered is that when horses are trained their backs actually change shape. A green horse who has just been backed has little muscle on what is called the 'top line'. A fit horse can have quite a lot. Many times, an inexperienced trainer will discover that their green horse suddenly starts playing up about two months into work. They may think, or even be told, that the horse is going through a 'testing' phase—when often the inevitable physical changes have resulted in a saddle that fit perfectly when the horse was backed not fitting any more. Many professional trainers use saddles with adjustable trees for just this reason.
A horse should not be beaten if it is scared, but rather be worked with to help it get over its fear. I have seen horses react with fear to the strangest things, such as walking into a box stall, or a horse that would jump anything as long as it didn't have a ditch under it. Such apparently irrational fears are often the result of something in the animal's past. The horse that won't go into a box stall may have been, at some point, trapped in one. The horse that spooks at ditches may have been stuck under a fence with a ditch under it. I have also encountered genuine phobias in equines, but most of the time there's some triggering incident. Horses that are scared of particular things can be desensitized with time and patience. In many cases, though, the horse that is beaten for being scared is no longer afraid of whatever it was afraid of, but of its handler. Such animals need retraining to teach them to trust humans again.
Horses should also not be beaten if they are reacting the way they are because of pain and ill-fitting tack. Sudden misbehavior by a horse that is normally an angel is 90% of the time caused by physical discomfort of some kind. Of course, knowing your horse and how they normally behave is key.
Is There A Better Way?
Also, consider whether there is a better way to get your point across to the animal.
For example, in the case of chronic misbehavior or a horse that is throwing tantrums (I've seen both green horses and older horses that have not been well trained throw actual tantrums), it is often much more effective to work the horse until the misbehavior ceases and then immediately end the schooling session.
If a horse is refusing to do a specific maneuver and pain and discomfort have been eliminated, then it is much more effective to school that maneuver last and end the session as soon as it has been done correctly, until the horse does it right off.
Ending the schooling session once the horse has done what you want is, of course, the ultimate 'release'.
For problems on the ground, the voice and body language tend to be more effective than the whip, although I have used a lunge whip as a barrier to convince a horse of the concept of 'personal space'.
Finally, if the misbehavior is running away or 'taking off', then the use of any kind of physical discipline tends to be counter-productive. Some horses run away because of discomfort - running away can be a symptom of over-bitting. If the horse is doing it to be a brat, then I have found only one effective solution. That solution is to keep the horse running. When it tries to stop, keep it running. Don't let it stop until you say. It usually only takes two or three applications of that for the horse to realize that running off with you isn't much fun. Hitting a horse that runs off will often be used by it as an excuse to run off again.
In Summary
In summary, hitting a horse can be discipline or abuse. Some people believe that any use of the whip is abuse. However, the good rules of thumb follow:
- Discipline must take place immediately after the misbehavior. Note that tying a horse up and leaving it to think about what it did does not work on horses.
- A horse should never be disciplined for being afraid or spooking.
- A horse should not be disciplined if there is a reasonable suspicion that it may be in pain or discomfort.
- Any discipline should be followed by immediate release, assuming the misbehavior has indeed stopped. It is almost never necessary to hit a horse more than once.
- For some misbehaviors, using the whip is not the most effective method of discipline.
Where did you take this from Eduardo? It reminds me of a book by Suzanne Clothier, who is one of leading authorities on animal training/behaviour worldwide. The book I read focused on dogs but many of the same sentiments are vaguely used here.
I watch quite a lot of this guys videos, hes a bit nutty but seems to know a lot about them
https://www.youtube.com/user/horseawareness/videos
https://www.youtube.com/user/horseawareness/videos
I think Joe/DK, Boris Fenster or whatever we used to call him has gone from being a good poster back in the day, to having completely lost the plot these days.
Is there a Not606 psychiatric forum for him?
Maybe the more he changes his name the crazier he becomes, I dread to think what he'll be like after the next change.
Is there a Not606 psychiatric forum for him?
Maybe the more he changes his name the crazier he becomes, I dread to think what he'll be like after the next change.
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"Is there a Not606 psychiatric forum for him?"
Yes there is, and I run it.
Yes there is, and I run it.
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Having seen the video it doesn't look good. But, I've seen tricky horses broken behind closed doors and some of the methods don't look good either. Irish horses are usually impeccably mannered and I'm sure this goes on. I use one of the top farriers in the country and I've seen him give a horse a dig. When I questioned him about it he said his job is dangerous one and the horses have learn manners as he can't have a half tonne horse falling on him or kicking him.
Do I agree with these methods
No
Do I agree with these methods
No
When riding horses it's all about trust. You become the pack leader and the horse has to trust you. I believe Davy is a good horseman and from the clip the horse refused to stop and when asked to go forward refused. Sometimes they have to be persuaded and when they do rewarded.
Man o the moment Puppy Power has his say
Cheltenham Gold Cup-winning jockey Robbie Power says the reaction on social media to Davy Russell's Tramore incident with Kings Dolly has been "way over the top" and does not believe there was any malicious intent from his colleague.
Russell has been criticised for appearing to strike Kings Dolly in the face at the 'show' hurdle before the 2m mares' handicap hurdle on Friday night, but Power has some sympathy and feels Russell was simply trying to get the horse's attention.
"On the video I saw, it looked as if the horse was paying no attention to Davy's instructions to slow down going into the hurdle," Power said.
"I cannot believe what some people are saying. Some of the things I've read have been ridiculous. The reaction on social media has been way over the top. There was no malicious intent there and people need to realise that."
A decision on whether Russell will face punishment will be made before the end of the week, according to Turf Club chief executive Denis Egan.
The Turf Club will speak to Russell over the next couple of days to hear his side of the story, as well as trainer Roger McGrath, and then it will be decided whether the matter should be handed over to a referrals committee for potential punishment.
"We will talk to Davy and see what he has to say. We also hope to speak to Roger McGrath as well," Egan said. "When we have done that and, after we hear all the sides of the story, we will then decide whether the matter needs to be referred on for further investigation. We need to decide whether any rules have been broken. The matter will be fully investigated."
Speaking in the Star newspaper, for which he is a regular columnist, Russell said: "Unfortunately the Turf Club are looking at what happened at Tramore and I can't really go into any specifics.
"The situation with Kings Dolly was an ordinary enough situation and I didn't do anything out of the ordinary. I'm not sure everyone on social media understands how a thoroughbred racehorse handles at race time but I'm happy to speak with the Turf Club about this."
Cheltenham Gold Cup-winning jockey Robbie Power says the reaction on social media to Davy Russell's Tramore incident with Kings Dolly has been "way over the top" and does not believe there was any malicious intent from his colleague.
Russell has been criticised for appearing to strike Kings Dolly in the face at the 'show' hurdle before the 2m mares' handicap hurdle on Friday night, but Power has some sympathy and feels Russell was simply trying to get the horse's attention.
"On the video I saw, it looked as if the horse was paying no attention to Davy's instructions to slow down going into the hurdle," Power said.
"I cannot believe what some people are saying. Some of the things I've read have been ridiculous. The reaction on social media has been way over the top. There was no malicious intent there and people need to realise that."
A decision on whether Russell will face punishment will be made before the end of the week, according to Turf Club chief executive Denis Egan.
The Turf Club will speak to Russell over the next couple of days to hear his side of the story, as well as trainer Roger McGrath, and then it will be decided whether the matter should be handed over to a referrals committee for potential punishment.
"We will talk to Davy and see what he has to say. We also hope to speak to Roger McGrath as well," Egan said. "When we have done that and, after we hear all the sides of the story, we will then decide whether the matter needs to be referred on for further investigation. We need to decide whether any rules have been broken. The matter will be fully investigated."
Speaking in the Star newspaper, for which he is a regular columnist, Russell said: "Unfortunately the Turf Club are looking at what happened at Tramore and I can't really go into any specifics.
"The situation with Kings Dolly was an ordinary enough situation and I didn't do anything out of the ordinary. I'm not sure everyone on social media understands how a thoroughbred racehorse handles at race time but I'm happy to speak with the Turf Club about this."
Ive given my opinion without insulting anyone for having a different view, seems you were not capable of doing the same. A few have agreed with me and now the Gold Cup winning jockey from last season has said exactly the same thing.
Have we all lost the plot?
Sure enough Davy, only this week I have seen at least a dozen jockeys punch their mounts in the head, one for rearing in the stalls, one for not going in the stalls, once in the parade ring to let him know who was the boss and once in the winners enclosure for looking at his wife!
"Trial by social media" results in a 4 day ban for Russell for a few days after Listowel. Horrible, horrible aftertaste this leaves, for the way he was vilified online and the governing body was made to look ridiculous by the appeal. The way of the world these days I suppose ................... but in the words of Graham Taylor: "Do I not like that"
You'd think he'd react with abit of regret for what he did and apologise for it. Instead he's playing the victim card, despite getting off very lightly in my opinion. A 4 day ban is nothing for a jockey with his wealth. I'd of given him minimum a few months. That clip will be used against horse racing by animal rights campaigners til the end of time.
Tom Scudamore now making a prat of himself on the radio.
https://talksport.com/horse-racing/...ell-over-horse-punch-sometimes-youve-got-take
Sometimes you have to take those measures, of punching a horse in the head apparently
It just shows a massive disregard for the horses these guys make a very good living from riding, for in Russels case to show no regret for it, and in Scudamores case to go on the radio and defend it.
Tom Scudamore now making a prat of himself on the radio.
https://talksport.com/horse-racing/...ell-over-horse-punch-sometimes-youve-got-take
Sometimes you have to take those measures, of punching a horse in the head apparently
It just shows a massive disregard for the horses these guys make a very good living from riding, for in Russels case to show no regret for it, and in Scudamores case to go on the radio and defend it.
This is the first time I’ve actually read this thread having been down in God’s own county when the majority of it was aired.
I’m actually saddened and shocked (so shocked in fact that my monocle popped out) that some members seem fine about a jockey punching a horse and that a worthy ‘punishment’ is either a caution or 4 days suspension. I’d say at the very minimum 3 months suspension would be a suitable reprimand. Ask yourself this question – is it OK for a person to punch a horse when the horse isn’t acting in a manner likely to cause injury to that person or someone else. Anyone who answers that with anything other than the word ‘no’ in my opinion seriously wants to look at themselves. Meanwhile, anyone who says ‘no but what people not in the racing industry don’t understand…’ is just as bad and really are the reason why the sport is so mocked and disparaged by huge sections of both the media and the country. I’ve always maintained that for racing to fall further in the nation’s mindset all it ever needs to do is put a microphone in front of 90% of the people associated with the sport. The prime example being Simon Claisse who infamously remarked one year, after 5 horse had died on the opening 2 days of the Cheltenham Festival (including my old fave Featherbed Lane). ‘I’m not discussing this Cheltenham doesn’t have a problem’.
This incident has done a huge amount to further disparage the image of horse racing and given huge leverage to those keen to attack it.
I’m actually saddened and shocked (so shocked in fact that my monocle popped out) that some members seem fine about a jockey punching a horse and that a worthy ‘punishment’ is either a caution or 4 days suspension. I’d say at the very minimum 3 months suspension would be a suitable reprimand. Ask yourself this question – is it OK for a person to punch a horse when the horse isn’t acting in a manner likely to cause injury to that person or someone else. Anyone who answers that with anything other than the word ‘no’ in my opinion seriously wants to look at themselves. Meanwhile, anyone who says ‘no but what people not in the racing industry don’t understand…’ is just as bad and really are the reason why the sport is so mocked and disparaged by huge sections of both the media and the country. I’ve always maintained that for racing to fall further in the nation’s mindset all it ever needs to do is put a microphone in front of 90% of the people associated with the sport. The prime example being Simon Claisse who infamously remarked one year, after 5 horse had died on the opening 2 days of the Cheltenham Festival (including my old fave Featherbed Lane). ‘I’m not discussing this Cheltenham doesn’t have a problem’.
This incident has done a huge amount to further disparage the image of horse racing and given huge leverage to those keen to attack it.
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