Damage limitation

Rubbersoul said:
I think in the grand scheme of things it is OK at Arsenal. But if you want the owners to sack Wenger its not going to happen because of the reasoning i gave in my last post.
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You thinking things are 'OK at Arsenal' would be music to their ears if they read forums like this (but let's not kid ourselves that they do). One suspects they thrive on being backed by as many people as they can who share their preference of having no ambition on the field as long as the money comes rolling in.

Again, because something isn't going to happen, doesn't make it OK that it doesn't happen.
 
cini65 said:
You thinking things are 'OK at Arsenal' would be music to their ears if they read forums like this (but let's not kid ourselves that they do). One suspects they thrive on being backed by as many people as they can who share their preference of having no ambition on the field as long as the money comes rolling in.

Again, because something isn't going to happen, doesn't make it OK that it doesn't happen.
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I just dont understand the anger. You do try and fight for trophies but November to February comes along and your players just dont turn up, nothing to do with Wenger. Ozil going missing is not Wengers fault, he's bought him to be a star player and disappears from matches.

Sanchez just acts like a child when things dont go his way and if he wants to leave I struggle to think of any club 'bigger' than Arsenal he could play for.

Your back four when fit is quality, injuries have been a struggle.

And when Cech was signed last year it was like your prayers being answered to finally have a quality keeper to help your team.

Wenger has done everything he can to improve them and it's the players who haven't turned up. The players know the fans aren't happy with just being forth but only really turn it for the start and the end of a campaign so they comfortably stay in the top four.
 
Rubbersoul said:
I just dont understand the anger. You do try and fight for trophies but November to February comes along and your players just dont turn up, nothing to do with Wenger. Ozil going missing is not Wengers fault, he's bought him to be a star player and disappears from matches.

Sanchez just acts like a child when things dont go his way and if he wants to leave I struggle to think of any club 'bigger' than Arsenal he could play for.

Your back four when fit is quality, injuries have been a struggle.

And when Cech was signed last year it was like your prayers being answered to finally have a quality keeper to help your team.

Wenger has done everything he can to improve them and it's the players who haven't turned up. The players know the fans aren't happy with just being forth but only really turn it for the start and the end of a campaign so they comfortably stay in the top four.
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It's entirely to do with Wenger. He has had over a decade to pick whatever players he wants, whatever backroom team he wants, train everyone up the way he wants and choose the tactics for every game. Many of these are players who haven't collapsed at other clubs the way they do with us.

By saying that it's the players' fault, you're basically excusing managers from taking any blame at all ever for football. If the manager has no say in anything, then maybe we just don't need one?

All the evidence suggests the inherent weakness is with our manager. Dozens of players have come and gone and our team still displays the same inadequacies regardless of playing personnel. The only constant in all this is Wenger.

There is absolutely no evidence that other players would be achieving great things under Wenger. Because he's had tons of other players... and screwed up the same way every time with all of them.
 
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The owners have got you stuck in a catch-22. Yes, top 4 every season balances the books nicely. And yes, take it from a Spurs fan that it IS an incredible achievement that no other club can boast of. But the reality is that the same thing preventing the board from acting - finance - is the same thing that will prevent you from ever progressing. Your spending power will probably never be as robust as United, City or even Chelsea. Unless a new, mega-wealthy owner steps in who, unlike Kroenke/Gazidis treat the club as their own personal vanity project, the only other recourse to close that gap is to grow the club's global brand name and image. The fact that United's revenue continues to grow exponentially year on year despite relatively awful seasons is testament to their global reach and brand power. But the only way for Arsenal to achieve this is to chance upon an extremely marketable player (such as Bale, Ibra, Rooney) and to win major trophies. I'd wager that Leicester's global fanbase grew more in one season than Arsenal's has in a decade. Fans outside of the UK are generally glory-hunters who will follow the yellow brick road rather than actual footballing history. And the yellow-brick road is paved with trophies. Finishing 4th, not competing for the title and being dumped out of the CL relatively early on does almost nothing to boost your global revenue.

So, the board happily keeps you in the top 4 because it pays for you to remain in the top 4. It cannot pay for anything more because of the revenue gap you suffer on 2-3 much bigger clubs. It's a classic vicious cycle that someone with balls will eventually have to break and take a risk on a new man with a new plan.
 
cini65 said:
It's entirely to do with Wenger. He has had over a decade to pick whatever players he wants, whatever backroom team he wants, train everyone up the way he wants and choose the tactics for every game. Many of these are players who haven't collapsed at other clubs the way they do with us.

By saying that it's the players' fault, you're basically excusing managers from taking any blame at all ever for football. If the manager has no say in anything, then maybe we just don't need one?

All the evidence suggests the inherent weakness is with our manager. Dozens of players have come and gone and our team still displays the same inadequacies regardless of playing personnel. The only constant in all this is Wenger.

There is absolutely no evidence that other players would be achieving great things under Wenger. Because he's had tons of other players... and screwed up the same way every time with all of them.
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So say they finally sack Wenger after all the abuse he receives and signs a manager and they dont get top four. Whose fault will it be then?

The owners for not signing a better manager?
The manager for not making the players better?
The players for not playing up to the level expected?

ATM your owners have kept the right manager to keep you at that top level and the manager is taking you to a consistently great level but the players keep letting you down.
 
cini65 said:
It's entirely to do with Wenger. He has had over a decade to pick whatever players he wants, whatever backroom team he wants, train everyone up the way he wants and choose the tactics for every game. Many of these are players who haven't collapsed at other clubs the way they do with us.

By saying that it's the players' fault, you're basically excusing managers from taking any blame at all ever for football. If the manager has no say in anything, then maybe we just don't need one?

All the evidence suggests the inherent weakness is with our manager. Dozens of players have come and gone and our team still displays the same inadequacies regardless of playing personnel. The only constant in all this is Wenger.

There is absolutely no evidence that other players would be achieving great things under Wenger. Because he's had tons of other players... and screwed up the same way every time with all of them.
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Have you forgotten when Arsenal were unbeaten for a whole season and had quality players in the past because that last sentence is completely incorrect.
 
C.Kane said:
The owners have got you stuck in a catch-22. Yes, top 4 every season balances the books nicely. And yes, take it from a Spurs fan that it IS an incredible achievement that no other club can boast of. But the reality is that the same thing preventing the board from acting - finance - is the same thing that will prevent you from ever progressing. Your spending power will probably never be as robust as United, City or even Chelsea. Unless a new, mega-wealthy owner steps in who, unlike Kroenke/Gazidis treat the club as their own personal vanity project, the only other recourse to close that gap is to grow the club's global brand name and image. The fact that United's revenue continues to grow exponentially year on year despite relatively awful seasons is testament to their global reach and brand power. But the only way for Arsenal to achieve this is to chance upon an extremely marketable player (such as Bale, Ibra, Rooney) and to win major trophies. I'd wager that Leicester's global fanbase grew more in one season than Arsenal's has in a decade. Fans outside of the UK are generally glory-hunters who will follow the yellow brick road rather than actual footballing history. And the yellow-brick road is paved with trophies. Finishing 4th, not competing for the title and being dumped out of the CL relatively early on does almost nothing to boost your global revenue.

So, the board happily keeps you in the top 4 because it pays for you to remain in the top 4. It cannot pay for anything more because of the revenue gap you suffer on 2-3 much bigger clubs. It's a classic vicious cycle that someone with balls will eventually have to break and take a risk on a new man with a new plan.
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The won back to back FA cups just two season ago so major trophies are being provided.
 
Rubbersoul said:
So say they finally sack Wenger after all the abuse he receives and signs a manager and they dont get top four. Whose fault will it be then?

The owners for not signing a better manager?
The manager for not making the players better?
The players for not playing up to the level expected?

ATM your owners have kept the right manager to keep you at that top level and the manager is taking you to a consistently great level but the players keep letting you down.
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Rubbersoul said:
Have you forgotten when Arsenal were unbeaten for a whole season and had quality players in the past because that last sentence is completely incorrect.
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So achieving that 13 years ago is evidence that this guy is good enough now?

We're obviously talking about the last decade. Of course he's had success in the past. Very distant past. A looooooooooooooooooong time ago. He's had over a decade to find the right players.

I repeat...
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Anyway, we're in another pointlessly circular argument that all comes down to standards. There are those in camp A satisfied with the current situation (or at least happy to put up with it) and Wenger because they're happy that top 4 is an achievement in itself and therefore are happy that we are 'achieving'. There are then others in camp B who aren't happy with the current situation because they don't see top 4 as an achievement in itself. And those two groups are not going to convince each other of changing. All that happens is that eventually some move from one camp to the other (generally it seems to be camp A people drifting to camp B and not the other way round).

What hacks me off (and i suspect others who share my views) is that it's the camp A views that seem to be shared by those in charge of our club... ie those that I think are holding us back. That's why the camp A viewpoint is so annoying. Camp A and their views represent what I see as being wrong with our club and why we'll eternally stagnate with our current board in place and with Wenger in charge. That's why there is such anger in camp B fans when talking with camp A fans.
 
Rubbersoul said:
The won back to back FA cups just two season ago so major trophies are being provided.
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The FA Cup hasn't been considered a 'major trophy' since United fobbed it off for the World Club Cup back in 2000. You only need to look at the line-ups of most PL clubs throughout the tournament to realise this.

Whereas your average Malaysian kid can probably reel off who won the EPL and CL for the last 5 years running, I doubt they'd give a flying toss about who won the FA Cup.
 
Rubbersoul said:
That people want Wenger out but he has constantly kept in you in the top 4, won trophies and have kept the club at a top level.

Players have let you down when getting to the league, not Wenger.
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So - what I'm getting from your posts is that when we win, it's down to the manager. But when we lose, it's because of the players? Where's the consistency in that argument?
 
BrunelGooner said:
So - what I'm getting from your posts is that when we win, it's down to the manager. But when we lose, it's because of the players? Where's the consistency in that argument?
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It's a fair point. If Wenger's responsible for our successes he'a also responsible for our failures.

I would say some of our squad have woefully underperformed this year: Ozil, Ramsey, Chamberlain, Walcott etc.. but the thing is players dont get punished or dropped for awful performances and good performances from the likes of Campbell and Perez over the last two Seasons haven't been rewarded with starts. There's no accountability at Arsenal and this is down to the manager.
 
TheBear said:
It's a fair point. If Wenger's responsible for our successes he'a also responsible for our failures.

I would say some of our squad have woefully underperformed this year: Ozil, Ramsey, Chamberlain, Walcott etc.. but the thing is players dont get punished or dropped for awful performances and good performances from the likes of Campbell and Perez over the last two Seasons haven't been rewarded with starts. There's no accountability at Arsenal and this is down to the manager.
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I don't disagree with you. On the contrary in fact. But that's not what he said.
 
cini65 said:
You thinking things are 'OK at Arsenal' would be music to their ears if they read forums like this (but let's not kid ourselves that they do). One suspects they thrive on being backed by as many people as they can who share their preference of having no ambition on the field as long as the money comes rolling in.

Again, because something isn't going to happen, doesn't make it OK that it doesn't happen.
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So basically you want to sack the manager so the board can get a new man in to meet their requirements. that makes sense <ok>
 
The argument that the board are simply content to get top 4 is bollocks.
 
PISKIE said:
The argument that the board are simply content to get top 4 is bollocks.
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Of course they are content with getting top 4. The fact you've said it's bullocks is delusional. They are primarily focused on money, that's what they do. The very fact they gave Wenger a contract before he even proved himself in the CL and league this season and then left it on the table after Arsenal crashed out of the CL and title race, suggest that winning isn't the main aim.

Also you honestly believe that if Wenger finished 5th two times in a row that they would still give him a new contract? You're talking bullocks if you do.

Qualifying for the CL is the ONLY thing that is keeping Wenger in his job.
 
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Diego said:
So basically you want to sack the manager so the board can get a new man in to meet their requirements. that makes sense <ok>
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Wenger and the board are two separate issues. They both need changing. Wenger needs to go regardless of the board because he's incompetent. That the board employing him are also ineffective is not a reason to keep an incompetent manager in a job. In an ideal world there would be a complete reform of our board who would then employ a better manager. In a slightly more realistic world, the board won't change but at least employ a competent manager. That manager would have abysmal targets set upon him but hopefully would be someone who at least tries to achieve more because he's capable of it and wants to. In an even more realistic world, Wenger signs a new four year deal and we do nothing for four years except maybe sign 2-3 £30m+ players to appease the few fans he has left but which ultimately do nothing but help cement a few more top 4 finishes.
 
Yeah pointless argume
BrunelGooner said:
So - what I'm getting from your posts is that when we win, it's down to the manager. But when we lose, it's because of the players? Where's the consistency in that argument?
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But when you win its down to the players and when you lose its down to the manager so the discussion was just going around in circles.

Wenger has kept you consistently at the level your at, even with some very average players. He has now brought in players to take them to a next level but they still stay in forth. I feel players know the bare minimum they do to stay forth and do so. Yeah you can argue the manager isn't motivating the players enough but i feel they are letting him down.
 
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