We're not talking about big clubs, we're talking about top 6 clubs. I don't reject the notion that you're a big club. You are, but you're not a top 6 club and have no right to be. See post 15 marra. Club stature and fan base mean **** all now. Football has change. Man City has a squad worth hundreds of millions and they can't fill their ground, mean while arguably one of the biggest English clubs ever, Leeds, are skint and struggling in lower divisions. Stature of your club gives you no god given right to be a top 6 club. Results do, because it's a results based industry.
Set aside some time and read the last 12 months of posts on our board. Our expectations have been rock bottom for ages. I suspect Mr Bellamy is still bitter. A lovely fellow who likes golf apparently... Well... The clubs at least.
The Newcastle squad - the people who actually go out and kick the ball about and try to get results - is pretty average in the league. We could have a good season and finish as high as, lets say 7th/8th. We could have a bad season and finish as low as 15th/16th. There are easily a handful of teams better than us and a handful of teams worse than us, that doesn't make Europe or the Championship impossible, just improbable. I think our current squad is better than Sunderlands, but not by a huge margin. 2 things I do take issue with: 1 - Bellamy, seriously. His attitude on the pitch was excellent but he was always a grade A prick off it. He makes Barton seem reasonable and intelligent. 2 - The use of the word "ever". I'm sure there were plenty of pundits a couple of years back saying they couldn't ever see Man Utd finishing outside the top 4, probably the same people saying it will take them years to get back. No, it takes money and strong leadership. Any club in the league could be bought out tomorrow and catapulted up the league like Chelsea/ Man City. FFP only affects European competition and is so far a mild concern rather than a barrier. In 20 years Darlington could be winning the Premiership.
Can't find much to disagree with there..... Actually no, can't find owt to disagree with. Good post. Hurts to admit that, in a small margin way.
Newcastle 779 premiership matches Boro 536, Sunderland 505 Highest Manu arsenal Liverpool etc 859 games
Here's the link to the Premier League All-Time Table http://www.statto.com/football/stats/england/premier-league/all-time-table/pl-years And the real All Time Table (inc. pre-1992) http://www.statto.com/football/stats/england/premier-league/all-time-table/full The second one shows us alongside each other which is just about right. It also dispels the myth that Manchester City are only a big club since the Sheikhs moved in - they have a rich history going back before that.
Oh yeah not disputing any of that, I must have got the wrong end of the stick about what the debate was. Obviously it simply comes down to the top 6 spending teams deserve to be in the top 6.
Not sure if that is sarcasm or not, but - No No No! It comes down to the top 6 performing teams deserving to be in the top 6. When we finished 5th we fully deserved to be there (whether we were outperforming ourselves or not) just as now Southampton, West ham & Swansea deserve to be there (so far). The table NEVER lies.
I'd like to take up a number of points here. (1) Bellamy clearly has no concept of time. I remember when Liverpool collapsed in 1952, held on by the skin of their teeth till 1954, and then were relegated. The only reason they held on so long was Billy Liddell - it wasn't nick-named 'Liddell-pool' for nothing. In the nine years between 1949 and 1958, Liddell was their leading scorer in eight of them. Liverpool were rubbish, and only came back at all because they made an inspired managerial signing from Carlisle United - some nobody called Shanikly! I've seen - I think - every PL club except Arsenal in a lower division - Villa, Man. C., and Sunderland in the third tier! Forget about 'the great' Arsenal, too. I saw them come to Roker Park three seasons in a row and lose 7 - 1, 5-2, and 3 -1 in a row. And the biggest humiliation of the three was the 3 - 1, which was virtually a Shackleton exhibition game. So that word 'ever' is simply junk. Two of the great founder members of the Football League played in an early round of the FA Cup together yesterday - Notts Co. v. Accrington Stanley. History means nothing. I take issue also with the point that Chelsea and Man. City's success was 'bought' and doesn't qualify them as big clubs. Oh yes, it does. The Team of All the Talents which won the League title three times in four years was bought lock, stock, and barrel from Scotland on money from J. L. Thompson's shipyard and Samuel Tyzacks coal mines, etc. Money has always meant everything in football. Don't let's get too smart about this - Sunderland invented buying success in 1891-1894. I like Smug's point that a big support base doesn't guarantee team success. It worked to a point in the 1950s, when massive crowds meant Sunderland could pay out tecord fees like no tomorrow and become known as The Bank of England Team. But t.v. has left that long out-of-date. What does a big crowd mean today? - Well, let's look at that. In the late 1950s, Friday Fight Live became an institution in the U.S.A. - you can see evidence of it in films like THe Odd Couple, etc. Guys used to gather, have a game of cards, and then switch on the t.v. for the fights. The problem was, it became so much of an institution that crowds began to drop in the boxing halls. Atmosphere dropped, and the t.v. shows became dull. Within a few years, boxing lost it's boxing hall audiences and it's t.v. appeal. The only thing that saved U.S. boxing from oblivion was a loud-mouthed kid from Lousville, Kentucky, who began to draw crowds just to see him get stuffed - and t.v. audiences revived. (For the record, the kid's name was Cassius Clay. After he had astonished the world by demolishing Sonny Liston [twice] he came clean with his Moslem faith, changed his name to Muhammed X for a year, and finally became known as Muhammed Ali. Boxing revived when the public realized that his 'I am the Greatest' boast was not necessarily unwarranted - he just might be! Today, what crowds mean is atmosphere for television. Your gate money will no longer buy the Tevez's and the Agueros. Crowd's - you - are t.v. enhancers and nothing else today. What is holding Sunderland and Newcastle back today? - Well, I can't talk about Newcastle in detail, so I hope their fans will take the Sunderland stuff on board. Ellis Short has invested millions into this club and seen incompetent football men squander it on sub-standard sh*t. Margaret Byrne seems to run a tight ship administravly, and the development team expand our market year on year. But 'football men' have let us down. In Newcastle's case, Ashley's appointment of Kevin Keagan was a master stroke - but then he put the cat amongst his own pigeons with the appointment of Dennis Wise. the worrying thing is Ashley's errors are down to one man - and he can learn them. In Sunderland's case, the owner has made one poor mistake - di Canio - but the rest has been due to 'football men' - almost everyone applauded the appointment of O'Neill for example. Ellis Short doesn't know where to get advice from next, Ashley does. The future, I think, lies with Newcastle.
Historical master class and the kind of perspective brought on by a love of sport. Out of loyalty to SAFC, I will challenge the last sentence by only saying ES is a quick learner and one who learns from his mistakes. If we keep going the way we are and improve when our injuries clear, I feel there are better times just around the corner.
