No problem re contradicting each other, cologne, no offence is taken I assure you, and, I’m sure you know no offence is meant from me. Tibet. The Dalai Lama is vegetarian and tries to persuade Tibetans to become vegetarian. I found this online: Dr. Tenzin Tsephal, Director of Tibetan Medicine in one of the main Tibetan expatriate settlements, who states, “It is not necessary for [the Dalai Lama] to eat meat. I would never prescribe someone to start eating meat again. The Tibetan doctors who do so are a bit old-fashioned and aren’t aware [of] or open to the alternatives to eating meat. I think all Tibetans can and should stop eating meat.” If your data re UK vegetarians of 14% is from the ComparetheMarket survey, the questions were not accurate enough to give a proper reflection of current numbers. The Vegetarian Society estimates 2-3%, as many people have funky ideas as to what vegetarian diet is, e.g. many pescatarians describe themselves as vegetarian. As a bit of fun, my Dad assumed that chicken was ok for vegetarians as it “isn’t red meat”. As I say, each to their own, but I think the change is possible nearly everyone. I say “nearly” because I don’t know the details of Mrs Fez’s needs for meat, but I’m sure she is not alone. But it is something relatively easy for people to do as a very positive step to help the environment.
I suspect there is a tension between the Tibetan diet and the Buddhist ideal of compassion Andy. The Dalai Lama may well be vegetarian but he does not live in Tibet, and neither do most of his followers. The fact is that Tibetan Buddhism has mixed messages on vegetarianism, with some Tantric schools actually encouraging meat eating for ceremonial purposes. Whatever the real picture is, neither of us have been to Tibet recently to verify the fact either way. From a moral point of view (and here the Ayur Veda backs me up) what is important is not what you eat but rather 'how' you eat ie. it is better to share my rabbit stew with my neighbour than to eat my bio dynamic vegan food alone and feel myself righteous in the process. I cannot equate either meat eating or vegetarianism fully with morality - is a Tiger evil ? Or was Hitler good because he was a vegetarian and, apparently, was emotionally disturbed when he saw animals suffer, even on film ? From an environmentalist point of view I cannot take a fundamentalist position on this - undoubtedly eating mass produced animals is both immoral, and bad for the environment - but if I eat the wild boar which my neighbour (he is actually a hunter) has shot anyway then I don't see a problem either from an environmentalist or a moral standpoint. Other than that I don't particularly like pork. The problem with most people is not what they actually eat - but how they do it. Mostly it is done to alleviate boredom, and most people in the West do too much of it, expect it to cost next to nothing, and have no interest in how it came to their table. Everyone who has tried veggie gardening knows that there is absolutely no relationship between the hours put into the work and the prices in the shops. In order to grow one cabbage plant you need about half a square metre and about 4 months of tending and at the end you see the same product going for 90 cents in Aldi. But the function of this within Capitalism is to keep things that way so that you have enough money for your next car or computer.
I know the Dalai Lama doesn’t live in Tibet, but the fact he wants Tibetans to take up vegetarianism shows it is possible there. It is very much on the rise in Tibet, apparently. I agree with your capitalism point. The ‘it was dead anyway’ argument is fun if you ally it with the prison analogy: “My cellmate killed someone, then ate them. I ate some too, but I didn’t do the killing.” I’m not a fundamentalist veggie, but I do think it is in the world’s interest for humans to adopt a veggie diet.
In regards to the tiger being evil thing, no, the tiger is not evil, but it is not in a position to make that sort of choice. Also (I may be wrong, but think this is correct) a cat needs meat to stay alive. Dogs don’t, but cats do The point is, we as humans, would ‘naturally’ kill each other, rape, steal and all sorts of other things, but we make choices as civilised beings not to do these things. Although I am an omnivore, I can make the choice to do something for the environment, for my own health, mental and physical, by keeping to a vegetarian diet. Doesn’t mean I consider myself better than others, I just think it’s a matter of doing my bit. I don’t recycle to feel better than my neighbours, I just try to do my bit. I think along those lines.
I think you will find that most carnivores tend to avoid cannibalism Andy - even Lions and Tigers will refrain from eating each other. I will however admit that we are probably not natural carnivores - the old idea of hunter and gatherer is probably misleading (we were more of the latter than the former). If we were natural carnivores we would not need to cook meat before eating it, and we would not need the aid of a weapon for hunting - and, as far as I know, man has never bitten or clawed even a mouse to death without one. A real carnivore could not live without meat - try to turn a Wolf into a vegan and he will not survive. So it is something we have chosen - or maybe we scavenged the left overs of sabre toothed tigers to begin with, and got the taste for it. At any rate we are on the borderline between herbivore and carnivore like bears (but without their weapons). We are also not herbivores because if you try to feed one of them only on meat then they will get sick quickly - though I did know a horse once who was partial to ham (and ice cream) The problem is a logistic one of imagining a country like the UK all going veggie - like 60 million of them - where would all the food come from in a country which has to import so much of it anyway. Moving onto other territory I know you are a vegetarian but how do you feel about medical testing done on animals - would you accept a vaccine which had been tested in this way ?
I find this conversation typical of decent reasoned opinion that we can expect from people that I respect for being prepared to put forward their views on so many things in a rational way. Where have those slogans gone? The last point that cologne makes about testing on animals is something I know a little about. My cousin apart from being a Lord Mayor also worked in a University unit that did medical research, mainly using cattle. I will not go into the details as it might put you off your steak or nut cutlet, but enough to say it did not sound very nice. His view was that it was for the benefit of humans, to save life. A lot of it was on organ transplants, and it was more important to save the life of a human than a cow. A quite powerful argument, as the life saved might turn out to save hundreds or thousands more.
I think the moral standpoint can get confused here with the medical debate. I have a choice to avoid eating meat, which I do primary because I like animals and would not want one to die for the sake of something so unnecessary as a single meal. If there is a choice in terms of vaccines, as there is in meals, of course I would go for the non-animal tested version. As Mrs Andy has just said, “Just because a vaccine is tested on animals doesn’t mean ‘Fuuck it. I may as well eat anything that moves now!’” The animal-testing/leather shoe argument, is not an argument for killing animals. What would I do if someone held a gun to my wife’s head? I would kill them. That is not an argument in favour of generalised murder. We are civilised, we can make choices. Dogs can be vegetarian, but cats can’t really, not without supplements. Cats need taurine amino acids which they can’t manufacture (dogs can) and vitamin D3 (dogs can cope with D2). Human beings are omnivores (as I described myself as still being - a dog doesn’t become a herbivore if it is on a vegan diet), but we have choices. In time, I think the number of people who make vegetarian choices will continue to grow and hopefully outnumber those who continue to eat meat.
Purely as fun, would it be ethical to test a medicine on a human that could save hundreds of thousands of cows?
Dogs can be vegetarian in as much as they don't actually die from it - but it is a very risky business forcing a meat free diet on a dog - whilst they may survive the experience better than a cat you are still trying to force something which the dog isn't designed to handle - and doing this against its wishes, which is unethical. For the record the only member of the wild living canine species which has a high intake of vegetable matter is the Maned Wolf, found in South America - but even in this case it's only about 60% at the most. So the question is - should we be breeding and keeping dogs and cats as pets ?
So to sum up Andy - I have this problem at home in as much as my wife is more vegetarian than I am but I am the cook in our household - as a result I do not cook many things which I enjoy such as Lamb and Rabbit. We come together on fish, and sometimes she eats meat, though not a lot of it - so I have to adapt my culinary creations a bit. In our village there are at least 3 other households where one partner is fully vegetarian and the other isn't (normally the women are the veggies for some reason) and they cope with this - amicably I think ! It would be better if we ate less meat - and morality is all on your side in this debate, I admit that candidly. Rather than imposing vegetarianism on others I would simply like us to spend more time thinking about how our food arrives on the table - how animals are treated, how far, and under what conditions, my food is transported. I do not want to think that an animal died for my pleasure - but I also don't want to think that my food was flown half way around the World to get to me. I can cope with the idea that people will pay more realistic prices for better organic food, but I do not want this only to be the preserve of the middle classes - so there is the dilemma. As for testing of medicine on animals, I would accept that if there were no other way - but under no circumstances for cosmetic products. Keeping pets is another matter - as a self styled Anarcho Communist I cannot tell my dog what he should be eating (he is not even mine - just my friend) ! Maybe rabid veggies should think twice about keeping dogs if that is their plan. Actually I don't agree with us having bred so many domesticated animals in the first place - but they are there, and need looking after. Unfortunately most of us think of the animal kingdom as a kind of hierarchy ie. with us on top, the apes and chimps just after, then our domestic animals - dogs, cats, horses etc. and so on and so on. Some will be horrified at the idea of eating a horse but will eat minced beef without problem. Some of the vegetarians in our village have no apparent problem with protecting their garden vegetables against voles or snails by any means at hand and even the Buddhists (there are some here) have no problem slaughtering aphids and mosquitoes.
I agree with the transportation problem. We try very hard to buy food from as local as possible, but there aren’t many oranges grown in Hertfordshire. You do what can, don’t you? And it is tricky. I cannot abide this government, and detest Brexit hugely (I am a European, more than British), but I was happy about the recent UK move regarding transport of animals. That said, it is only a political gambit, to try and pull liberals on board with the anti-EU train. As for pets, we have two cats that would walk over my dead body for a Dreamie (cat treat). In fact, they would make a nest on me for as long as I have some temperature advantage, then they would walk over me. But I love cats. I love their independent spirit, and the fact that the person who demeans himself the most for the slightest acknowledgement from them also pays for their food, but they don’t give a ****. I love that. As you say, these are domesticated animals. I’m less keen on the keeping of birds in particular. Our neighbours are lovely (on one side, the other side are full-on twats), but they keep a mass of birds in a number of aviaries. I do find that difficult.
This caused the Swiss to break off diplomat relations with China ! Apparently a few years back the Swiss were selling redundant St Bernards to other countries for their mountain rescue services (the Swiss don't use them for this any more) - and those countries were selling them on to China which had a different end in mind for them. The Swiss apparently threw a fit at this and withdrew all their diplomats and closed their embassy there as a result. The St Bernard is almost holy in Switzerland so if the Swiss had been big enough they might even have taken stronger action. !
That is the ultimate dilemma, where do you draw the line Most animals have to kill something else in order to survive and the rest eat plants and nuts etc, BUT plants and trees are LIVING BREATHING ENITIES if you put a stethoscope to the side of a tree in summer you can hear it drinking and breathing, the same applies to vegetables Wether we are carnivores, omnivores, vegetarians or vegans we have to kill something that is alive in order to eat it to survive Factory livestock farming however is hideous and must be stamped out and if the result is the produce costs three or four times more and we therefore eat less that would be beneficial to our health
Seeing as vegetables are being discussed, I thought you would like to see a picture of some. please log in to view this image
I was talking to a Belgian friend yesterday. Her brother works for a British haulage firm in Belgium. The business was desperately trying to get l stuff out of the UK before January 1st but now have been kiboshed by the ban on anything from the UK. Apparently they thought that a deal would be reached that would provide some form of trade agreement. As no deal became more obvious they wanted to severely downsize their UK office. The new Covid restrictions are the last straw and they are thinking that there is no point in having a UK office at all. They realise that the latest restrictions are only temporary but they wonder what will come next. They have decised that they don't need the UK.
