Off Topic Common Core yikes

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terrifictraore said:
plenty of research into automatic responses to figures of authority, what is possibly more interesting is the example you gave ie Nazism, why did you choose that and not maybe the pilots that dropped the bombs on hiroshima/nagasaki?

weird...... what happened to me quoting the post from treble?
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Think you posted the quote first by mistake :huh:

I quoted nazis bcos in the documentaries etc I've seen about this, it's the example used. I agree it could apply to the pilots who dropped the Hiroshima bomb.

The only difference however is that with the nazis it was highlighting the direct human contact and "dehumanisation" process. So in concentration camps, normal Germans were conditioned to perform horrific acts against ppl who they saw everyday and were their prisoners, and believing it to be ok (much like the electricution experiment Sisu mentioned). By the way we saw the exact same effects in Abu Ghraib.

Also you have to wonder the same thing about how Hitler managed to condition an entire nation... but then we always think good & evil is easily defined but the truth is it happens to us also with every conflict. The things we condone as "necessary" actions like the use of drones to kill innocent ppl indiscriminately who have had no trial or due process of justice. Where we condone 2000 people including 500 children being bombed and killed in the Gaza strip.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-14564182

See the bit after the scientist says he took on the persona of a cruel guard towards the others.

This is the most profound point....

"It was rapidly spiralling out of control," said prison guard Mr Eshleman who hid behind his mirrored sunglasses and a southern US accent.

"I kept looking for the limits - at what point would they stop me and say 'No, this is only an experiment and I have had enough', but I don't think I ever reached that point."

He had to stop the experiment before something serious happened. The Stanford Experiment is a great example of how we are conditioned to dehumanise others... to this day.
 
You are right about good/evil being a very blurred line and how we could all be capable of doing things others would regard as wrong especially given the benefit of hindsight.

I remember early on in my career there was still a lot of fallout from the Pindown scandal (solitary confinement for children) and we would think how wonderful we were for not using that technique, Big problem was whilst patting ourselves on the back we were happy for 4 or 5 of us to restrain them on the floor inflicting a lot of pain in the process.

Was I evil for doing so? I would say no but if somebody was to do it today I would say yes.

I did pick up something from your post that made me think and am not sure if it was intentional, it was two separate sentences:
"I quoted nazis bcos in the documentaries etc I've seen about this, it's the example used"
"The Stanford Experiment is a great example of how we are conditioned to dehumanise others... to this day"
 
It was deliberate on my part. Nazism was given as an example in the programmes but it was also a much broader example of the case for all of us before and since.

400 yrs ago it was the blacks; 60 years ago it was the jews; 40 yrs ago it was the Vietnamese or the Irish; in the last decade it's the Americans or the muslims depending on which side you're on. And that's really my point - this is not something just one group of ppl are capable of. We all are brainwashed/conditioned to think one life is more important than another.

Think back to that cold war period when the fear of nuclear holocaust was considered a reality. One of my favourite quotes from that time was "Russians love their children too".

I forget who said it but once you understand the depth of meaning behind that quote, you really begin to understand ppl cant just be categorised as good or evil. And that people we fear aren't rabid, crazy maniacs that want to take over the world at all cost. This was the picture painted of the Russians. I'm sure it was true the other way around also. Now we hear the same stuff about groups like Hamas or Hezbollah and Iran. Sometimes as free thinkers we NEED to learn from the lessons of the past and move forward rather than allow ourselves to keep repeating the same fear and tragedy bcos we see ppl as good or evil; civilised or sub-human; worth saving or worth dying.

Sorry for the long post but as you can tell I feel quite passionate about this. Btw I'm not liberal or a pacifist. I believe strongly in the right to defend yourself, your family, your country. But, I want to do what I have to, while always remembering not to dehumanise the other guy. That is one reason why I can never condone the use of drones in military action, for example.
 
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Treble said:
Think you posted the quote first by mistake :huh:

I quoted nazis bcos in the documentaries etc I've seen about this, it's the example used. I agree it could apply to the pilots who dropped the Hiroshima bomb.

The only difference however is that with the nazis it was highlighting the direct human contact and "dehumanisation" process. So in concentration camps, normal Germans were conditioned to perform horrific acts against ppl who they saw everyday and were their prisoners, and believing it to be ok (much like the electricution experiment Sisu mentioned). By the way we saw the exact same effects in Abu Ghraib.

Also you have to wonder the same thing about how Hitler managed to condition an entire nation... but then we always think good & evil is easily defined but the truth is it happens to us also with every conflict. The things we condone as "necessary" actions like the use of drones to kill innocent ppl indiscriminately who have had no trial or due process of justice. Where we condone 2000 people including 500 children being bombed and killed in the Gaza strip.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-14564182

See the bit after the scientist says he took on the persona of a cruel guard towards the others.

This is the most profound point....

"It was rapidly spiralling out of control," said prison guard Mr Eshleman who hid behind his mirrored sunglasses and a southern US accent.

"I kept looking for the limits - at what point would they stop me and say 'No, this is only an experiment and I have had enough', but I don't think I ever reached that point."

He had to stop the experiment before something serious happened. The Stanford Experiment is a great example of how we are conditioned to dehumanise others... to this day.
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The Nazis did it a piece at a time, death of a thousand cuts. Same **** is happening in the EU and US this last decade, total surveillance, rendition, inrternment. Assassination without trial, all legal.

orwell as an optimist if you ask me

There are the exceptions, some German soldiers were shot for refusing to take part in massacres. personally if I was doing the shock test, if the supposed scientist said I had to keep going I'd have asked him if he likes the way his face is currently arranged.

Being forced at the end of a rifle, you really want to have strong principles to eat a bullet for them.
 
BringBackFootie. said:
Finland is 3rd in the world with student performance. behind China and Sweden I think.

Taking kids at 4 is "getting them while they are young" because they are so impressionable. It is at this stage that you teach kids to conform and subordinate unquestioningly to authority, this is carried through life.

I can think of two different experiments that have been done that relate to this.

There was the Blue Eye Brown Eye experiment. Kids with Brown eyes were told they were inferior to people with Blue eyes. The kids knew it was a sort of demonstration. The teacher would always favour the blue eye'd kids. They got to drink first from hte water fountain ect, praised and so on. Eventually the Brown eyed kids started to complain. The teacher then lied to the kids and said blue eyed people were actually superior in ways, which many people think is cruel and I can see why, but the result was that brown eyed kids started to do worse in their exams tests, and had worse rebellious behaviour. The blue eyed kids did better in pretty much all ways but notably, they started to believe their own superiority.

Here was a teacher that was able to create racism with her class in no time based solely on eye colour. These were older than 4 years old too. They just submitted and believed everything. That's my point. They were literally turned "eyeist" <yikes>

The other was the Milgram experiment, one person in a rooom with a button, they ask questions into a mic, they think there is another person next door. If the 2nd person answers wrong, the first person administers a shock and the volts are incremented with each wrong answer.
Because a guy in a white coat told them, he was no scientist just an actor with no authority, the people kept sending shocks even after they suspected they had killed the other person (who was just an actor in the next room screaming and moaning).

That's grown adults doing what they are told and were prepared to kill someone because they are predisposed to subordination and authority, most likely from education at a young age
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Some good points.

The Blue Eyes/Brown Eyes experiment was done to show how easy racism takes hold. Keep telling people, [in the original experiment it was children, but it has been done with adults] how one 'look' is superior to another and the 'superior' set will start believing it and the 'inferior' set will wonder why a different colour somehow makes them inferior. I don't think it displayed obedience to authority so much as showing how easy prejudices take hold. The Milgram experiment was purely about obeying authority and looking at the role responsibility played in it.
 
Tobes said:
You have to worry for the next generation and the one beyond

Human social interaction took a massive blow the day the SMS was invented. Since then we've seen a rapid erosion in vocal communication with the spread of the dreaded e-mail replacing the spoken word, and now mobile devices that entrap people into their virtual world even when within their own homes.

An average family with teenage kids, even when all in the same room, can all be completely silent these days all cocooned with their ipads and smart phones engaging in whatever work or inane 'social' interatcion that they're engrossed in, and despite sharing a space can often not share a word.......where does it end???
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I'm a lucky bloke <ok>
 
johnsonsbaby said:
Some good points.

The Blue Eyes/Brown Eyes experiment was done to show how easy racism takes hold. Keep telling people, [in the original experiment it was children, but it has been done with adults] how one 'look' is superior to another and the 'superior' set will start believing it and the 'inferior' set will wonder why a different colour somehow makes them inferior. I don't think it displayed obedience to authority so much as showing how easy prejudices take hold. The Milgram experiment was purely about obeying authority and looking at the role responsibility played in it.
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I referenced both experiments, the first to show how kids can be literally programmed with core beliefs and to accept authority and orders unquestioningly and the second, to show how adults still retain that programming long after leaving the schooling environment.

Parenting plays a part too. It's never good to keep telling your kids "because I said so" as a reason to follow direction ;)
 
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Much like the blue eye/ red eye experiment they tried telling a group of kids that footballers in blue shirts were superior to footballers wearing red shirts. Unfortunately half the class died laughing.
 
BringBackFootie. said:
I referenced both experiments, the first to show how kids can be literally programmed with core beliefs and to accept authority and orders unquestioningly and the second, to show how adults still retain that programming long after leaving the schooling environment.

Parenting plays a part too. It's never good to keep telling your kids "because I said so" as a reason to follow direction ;)
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Fair enough. I will add that the Blue Eyes experiment when done with adults, produces exactly the same results. Also don't you 'programme' your children with core beliefs? We did with ours, the alternative was [is] that mad 'free expression' thing were kids were [are] allowed to do what they like. Resulting in mixed up messes. Everyday you're showing your kids what your values are whether you realise it or not.
 
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johnsonsbaby said:
. Also don't you 'programme' your children with core beliefs? We did with ours, the alternative was [is] that mad 'free expression' thing were kids were [are] allowed to do what they like. Resulting in mixed up messes. Everyday you're showing your kids what your values are whether you realise it or not.
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Spot on, problem is drug users, career criminals, lifers on the benefit system etc also pass on their strange values leaving those children at a massive disadvantage.
 
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Spot on, problem is drug users, career criminals, lifers on the benefit system etc also pass on their strange values leaving those children at a massive disadvantage.
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Very true.

Children pick up on what their parents do and good or bad, they tend to follow suit. Nobody's perfect but if you're not giving your kids the tools they need to be happy/healthy/successful in life, you're selling them short. If you teach them respect for themselves and others, tolerance, right from wrong, healthy lifestyle, fun, laughter and encourage interests in music or sport, for example, then when they start school it'll be a place first and foremost to socialise and take in facts and not somewhere they're going to be 'shaped' - because as a parent you're already seeing to that at home.
 
johnsonsbaby said:
Very true.

Children pick up on what their parents do and good or bad, they tend to follow suit. Nobody's perfect but if you're not giving your kids the tools they need to be happy/healthy/successful in life, you're selling them short. If you teach them respect for themselves and others, tolerance, right from wrong, healthy lifestyle, fun, laughter and encourage interests in music or sport, for example, then when they start school it'll be a place first and foremost to socialise and take in facts and not somewhere they're going to be 'shaped' - because as a parent you're already seeing to that at home.
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This, bar the drugs <laugh>
 
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