He is absolute dog ****e.... I have watched him get so many horses beaten this season alone... whatever Juddmonte saw in him, God only knows. One I definitely wouldn't let near my bike, let alone ride it..
Off Topic Colin Keane
- Thread starter TIGERSCAVE
- Start date
-
Please bear with us on the new site integration and fixing any known bugs over the coming days. If you can not log in please try resetting your password and check your spam box. If you have tried these steps and are still struggling email [email protected] with your username/registered email address
-
Just witnessed one of the most disgusting rides I've ever seen.
I had to rewatch the race twice to confirm my observations.
Colin Keane today on Cosmic Year.
It will be a long time before I trust him again.
I had to rewatch the race twice to confirm my observations.
Colin Keane today on Cosmic Year.
It will be a long time before I trust him again.
Just to re-itterate its not horses he's got beaten on, but horses he has been on he has got beaten...
Last edited:
He’s riding at difficult courses and ones he hasn’t got bags of experience at. It’s a recipe for inconsistency.
Nassau.... 4 runner race, you're on the favourite, likely the best horse... where does the adage Keep it Simple Stupid (KISS) not come into play.
I go back to a 5 horse race at Sandown very recently PUBLISH. ( he got suspended for misuse the race after) How he contrived to get it beaten is beyond me. In fact, just re run the ride today.
I'm a massive fan of White Birch, how he managed to get that beaten in the Tatts Gold Cup behind Los Angeles is beyond me.
Oisin Murphy makes him look like a 7lb claimer.
Last edited:
There was an article a week, or so, ago alledging that apparently all wasn't well between Juddmonte and Colin Keane. The words 'trouble in paradise' mentioned I seem to recall. 'Paradise' probably being a nod to his tremendous start to the role by winning the Irish 2,000.
The ride that seems to have first caused a bit of a split was not a 'top table' one but, as mentioned above, his effort in a novice heat at Sandown Park (the debut of the 2YO Publish). Old boy Gosden fuming by all accounts - jumping up and down on the battered old trilby, I expect.
The 2 riders who seemingly have lost the most by Colin Keane's appointment (you could say 3 but Kieran Shoemark a while gone from his Clarehaven role by then) would be Oisin Murphy and Rossa Ryan who lost the Juddmonte rides associated with the Balding and Beckett yards. I did think the Keane appointment slightly bizarre as I wouldn't rate him anywhere near either of these 2 riders.
The ride that seems to have first caused a bit of a split was not a 'top table' one but, as mentioned above, his effort in a novice heat at Sandown Park (the debut of the 2YO Publish). Old boy Gosden fuming by all accounts - jumping up and down on the battered old trilby, I expect.
The 2 riders who seemingly have lost the most by Colin Keane's appointment (you could say 3 but Kieran Shoemark a while gone from his Clarehaven role by then) would be Oisin Murphy and Rossa Ryan who lost the Juddmonte rides associated with the Balding and Beckett yards. I did think the Keane appointment slightly bizarre as I wouldn't rate him anywhere near either of these 2 riders.
There have always been Owner's Jockeys. For example for years Doug Smith was Lord Derby's jockey and when he retired Willie Carson took over. By Willie's days it was no big deal as the Lord Derby of that time had few horses with just one trainer.
Juddmonte restarted this fashion in 1986. Their first move was when Eddery unfairly replaced Starkey (Harwood's stable jockey) on Dancing Brave and then was asked to ride all the Juddmonte horses. One upshot of this was that Dick Hern asked Khaled Abdulla to remove all his horses from his stable as he did not want to have an owner using their own jockey and not his stable jockey. Of course 4 years later, with Hamdan having found Hern a new home, when Hamdan appointed Carson as his jockey he then had to watch Carson ride Hamdan's horses in races in which he had his own runner. Hamdan/Shadwell has continued to have their own jockey.
Juddmonte took a rest after Eddery and then Hughes. But now they're back with an unlikely choice in Keane.
Personally I prefer stable jockeys but that's difficult when one has the Godolphins, Shadwells and Juddmontes of this World. A stable jockey provides a service to a trainer that a parachuted-in jockey cannot: but maybe I'm just old-fashioned.
Juddmonte restarted this fashion in 1986. Their first move was when Eddery unfairly replaced Starkey (Harwood's stable jockey) on Dancing Brave and then was asked to ride all the Juddmonte horses. One upshot of this was that Dick Hern asked Khaled Abdulla to remove all his horses from his stable as he did not want to have an owner using their own jockey and not his stable jockey. Of course 4 years later, with Hamdan having found Hern a new home, when Hamdan appointed Carson as his jockey he then had to watch Carson ride Hamdan's horses in races in which he had his own runner. Hamdan/Shadwell has continued to have their own jockey.
Juddmonte took a rest after Eddery and then Hughes. But now they're back with an unlikely choice in Keane.
Personally I prefer stable jockeys but that's difficult when one has the Godolphins, Shadwells and Juddmontes of this World. A stable jockey provides a service to a trainer that a parachuted-in jockey cannot: but maybe I'm just old-fashioned.
I thought Starkey deserved to be replaced. Dancing Brave was asked to come from an impossible position yet only lost by a neck, flying at the finish.
In the build up to the 1986 Derby many had questioned whether the 2000 Guineas winner would stay the extra half mile at Epsom. I think Starkey was fed up reading about it and being asked about it, because he rather forcefully told one enquirer that the horse would stay SIX miles.
You often hear about jockeys being instructed to "Ride them as if they will stay" but whatever Starkey was advised to do, he didn't keep the son of Lyphard, who had been passed on by Jeremy Tree to go to Guy Harwood, close to the pace and Sharastani had set sail for home and poached an unassailable lead, though Dancing Brave gave it a damn good shot.
Visual evidence on the day and subsequent events proved that the Guineas winner should have doubled up at Epsom.
I still can't recall how Starkey managed to keep the ride in the Eclipse but after a 4 length triumph against Triptych and other older horses it was Eddery who rode Dancing Brave from then on.
Admittedly I had a big bet on Dancing Brave. Back in those bachelor days I was pretty gung ho and had had a big double on Dancing Brave and Michael Stoute's Sonic Lady in the Guineas's. The filly managed to get beat there but made no mistake in the Irish version. That left me sticking to a single bet in the Derby and the week's wages went on. I was skint after the race and had I been at Epsom I suspect I might have been waiting for Starkey in the weighing room carrying a Morris Minor starting handle.
Oh well it was only money. Still feel it was one of the Derbies that got away and Eddery later delivered one of the most memorable rides in what was a truly stacked Arc field.
"And here comes Dancing Brave powering down the centre of the track"
Damn good dog impersonator Starkey was though.
In the build up to the 1986 Derby many had questioned whether the 2000 Guineas winner would stay the extra half mile at Epsom. I think Starkey was fed up reading about it and being asked about it, because he rather forcefully told one enquirer that the horse would stay SIX miles.
You often hear about jockeys being instructed to "Ride them as if they will stay" but whatever Starkey was advised to do, he didn't keep the son of Lyphard, who had been passed on by Jeremy Tree to go to Guy Harwood, close to the pace and Sharastani had set sail for home and poached an unassailable lead, though Dancing Brave gave it a damn good shot.
Visual evidence on the day and subsequent events proved that the Guineas winner should have doubled up at Epsom.
I still can't recall how Starkey managed to keep the ride in the Eclipse but after a 4 length triumph against Triptych and other older horses it was Eddery who rode Dancing Brave from then on.
Admittedly I had a big bet on Dancing Brave. Back in those bachelor days I was pretty gung ho and had had a big double on Dancing Brave and Michael Stoute's Sonic Lady in the Guineas's. The filly managed to get beat there but made no mistake in the Irish version. That left me sticking to a single bet in the Derby and the week's wages went on. I was skint after the race and had I been at Epsom I suspect I might have been waiting for Starkey in the weighing room carrying a Morris Minor starting handle.
Oh well it was only money. Still feel it was one of the Derbies that got away and Eddery later delivered one of the most memorable rides in what was a truly stacked Arc field.
"And here comes Dancing Brave powering down the centre of the track"
Damn good dog impersonator Starkey was though.
I'll never accept that about Starkey. If you watch Dancing Brave at the top of the hill he was in a position that was perfectly reasonable but by the bottom of the hill he was too far back. No jockey would hold a horse back to preserve their stamina coming down Tattenham hill. The fact is Dancing Brave didn't act on the track.
You'll disagree with that but you have to explain why he went backwards. There can only be two reasons and the most likely thing is he didn't act on the course. It sounds like you were talking through your pocket. Thousands did.
You'll disagree with that but you have to explain why he went backwards. There can only be two reasons and the most likely thing is he didn't act on the course. It sounds like you were talking through your pocket. Thousands did.
From Timeform's Unluckiest Losers files-
Why was Dancing Brave unlucky?
Swinburn revealed afterwards that it had always been the plan to try and get first run on Dancing Brave, giving his strong-staying mount the best chance of success, and he certainly deserved his fair share of credit for executing those tactics to perfection.
It was clear to all those who saw it that the best horse had not won the race, though, and Starkey was inevitably apportioned most of the blame for a losing ride that he is remembered for perhaps above all else, despite a career in the saddle that featured 1,989 winners (including five classics).
Where exactly did Starkey go wrong at Epsom? In this article in 2014, Simon Rowlands (@RowleyfileRRR) used more modern methods – specifically sectional timing analysis – to dissect one of the most contentious renewals of the Derby in the modern era.
“It was not that Greville Starkey, the jockey of Dancing Brave, got too far back per se – Pour Moi [the 2011 Derby winner] won from further behind, as we have seen – but that he got too far back in what had been a steadily-run race despite the large field.
“Starkey was pushing along on Dancing Brave from before the sectional [measured from the path entering the home straight], and it was only late on that Dancing Brave made serious inroads into Shahrastani’s advantage. The latter had been always close up and struck for home over 2f out but was still running quicker than par late on, which made him more difficult to overtake.
“Those sectional mark-ups suggest strongly that Dancing Brave ‘should’ have won the 1986 Derby. As one wag in editorial just said to me ‘you don’t need sectionals to tell you that!’ However, sectionals further suggest that Dancing Brave – who was beaten by half a length – could be rated the winner by about two and a half lengths.”
Guy Harwood later said that to have won the Derby on Dancing Brave, Starkey would have to had "cut the horse in half"
There's only one Derby and most jockeys would probably cut themselves in half to win one.
It's long in the past now but I reckon most people accept that Dancing Brave should have won the race and when horses don't handle Epsom it usually means not being involved in the race, rather than flying to lose by half a length.
Why was Dancing Brave unlucky?
Swinburn revealed afterwards that it had always been the plan to try and get first run on Dancing Brave, giving his strong-staying mount the best chance of success, and he certainly deserved his fair share of credit for executing those tactics to perfection.
It was clear to all those who saw it that the best horse had not won the race, though, and Starkey was inevitably apportioned most of the blame for a losing ride that he is remembered for perhaps above all else, despite a career in the saddle that featured 1,989 winners (including five classics).
Where exactly did Starkey go wrong at Epsom? In this article in 2014, Simon Rowlands (@RowleyfileRRR) used more modern methods – specifically sectional timing analysis – to dissect one of the most contentious renewals of the Derby in the modern era.
“It was not that Greville Starkey, the jockey of Dancing Brave, got too far back per se – Pour Moi [the 2011 Derby winner] won from further behind, as we have seen – but that he got too far back in what had been a steadily-run race despite the large field.
“Starkey was pushing along on Dancing Brave from before the sectional [measured from the path entering the home straight], and it was only late on that Dancing Brave made serious inroads into Shahrastani’s advantage. The latter had been always close up and struck for home over 2f out but was still running quicker than par late on, which made him more difficult to overtake.
“Those sectional mark-ups suggest strongly that Dancing Brave ‘should’ have won the 1986 Derby. As one wag in editorial just said to me ‘you don’t need sectionals to tell you that!’ However, sectionals further suggest that Dancing Brave – who was beaten by half a length – could be rated the winner by about two and a half lengths.”
Guy Harwood later said that to have won the Derby on Dancing Brave, Starkey would have to had "cut the horse in half"
There's only one Derby and most jockeys would probably cut themselves in half to win one.
It's long in the past now but I reckon most people accept that Dancing Brave should have won the race and when horses don't handle Epsom it usually means not being involved in the race, rather than flying to lose by half a length.
Not sure that that addresses my point at all. In fact I'd say it's a flawed piece of journalism in that it addresses the effect and not the cause. No-one would dispute that the better horse got beaten and no-one would probably dispute he was too far behind at Tattenham Corner. I certainly don't.
But what I do dispute is that the blame must be laid at the feet of Starkey. Also the above evidence seems to be the sectionals from the entrance to the straight to the finish, yet I'd say the race was already lost by then. I make my point again Dancing Brave lost ground from the field coming down from the top of the hill. Look at a film of the race and you'll see that's true. It would have been more instructive to measure the sectionals from the top of the hill to the straight than what is analysed in this article. And measure Dancing Brave's figures opposite the mid-horse in the field, now that would be instructive.
Starkey was in the top 5 or 6 Jockeys riding in 1986. He had already ridden 3 Epsom Classic winners so in that respect was as experienced at winning an Epsom Classic as any jockey riding that day with the exception of Willie Carson. And if we take the point made above that the early pace was moderate then I'm sure Starkey would realise that as well as anybody (despite the fact that journalists at that time seemed to think Cauthen was the only jockey 'with a clock in his head').
No, Starkey went back in the field at a time in the race when he wouldn't have wanted to . The simplistic conclusion of all and sundry was that Starkey was riding the horse as a possible non-stayer, but only an idiot would lose places in the field doing that. I believe Starkey and he felt that Dancing Brave didn't handle the downward sweep of the course. Others agreed with Starkey but the bulk gave him all the blame. Juddmonte were fickle and jumped on the bandwagon.
But what I do dispute is that the blame must be laid at the feet of Starkey. Also the above evidence seems to be the sectionals from the entrance to the straight to the finish, yet I'd say the race was already lost by then. I make my point again Dancing Brave lost ground from the field coming down from the top of the hill. Look at a film of the race and you'll see that's true. It would have been more instructive to measure the sectionals from the top of the hill to the straight than what is analysed in this article. And measure Dancing Brave's figures opposite the mid-horse in the field, now that would be instructive.
Starkey was in the top 5 or 6 Jockeys riding in 1986. He had already ridden 3 Epsom Classic winners so in that respect was as experienced at winning an Epsom Classic as any jockey riding that day with the exception of Willie Carson. And if we take the point made above that the early pace was moderate then I'm sure Starkey would realise that as well as anybody (despite the fact that journalists at that time seemed to think Cauthen was the only jockey 'with a clock in his head').
No, Starkey went back in the field at a time in the race when he wouldn't have wanted to . The simplistic conclusion of all and sundry was that Starkey was riding the horse as a possible non-stayer, but only an idiot would lose places in the field doing that. I believe Starkey and he felt that Dancing Brave didn't handle the downward sweep of the course. Others agreed with Starkey but the bulk gave him all the blame. Juddmonte were fickle and jumped on the bandwagon.
I agree that Dancing Brave didn’t act down the hill at Epsom.
It’s an indisputable fact that a sweeping downhill terrain will always accentuate differences in running styles or capabilities of any animal- far more than running on the flat or uphill.
It will also make observers see these differences and formulate strong, differing opinions.
Also, there are many people who believe that Epsom is a rough, shabby piece of ground, and that the Derby should never have been run there.
Here again, differences are highly accentuated.
Is Epsom good because it demands that a racehorse be adaptable to its changes in terrain?
Or is it bad because it doesn’t necessarily truly test a horse’s stamina, and even that is disputed as well?
Personally, I shouldn’t have chosen Epsom for Flat Racing’s premier race.
I think there are “fairer” tracks eg. Newbury, but doubtless many people will dispute that too.
Thanks for that Tamerlo, you are a member of a very small team of non-conformists.
I know what you mean about Epsom as it is a very unique racecourse. If the Derby had been run somewhere else Dancing Brave would have won.
He didn't act on the course and was that a signal that he might not be a good sire, which he wasn't? He was sold to Japan as a 7yo stallion and maybe the Epsom racecourse showed up the deficiencies he had that those early users of his services as a stallion didn't like. However he wasn't a disaster as a sire as he did sire a Derby winner and today he is in the pedigrees of Juddmonte horses through his daughter Hope. So despite being a failure as sire, as a broodmare sire he is represented by the produce of Kingman and Oasis Dream.
I think the Derby has given us great stallions, no more so than Galileo and Sea the Stars in recent times. You could also add to that Dubawi, who although only 3rd at Epsom wasn't beaten by the course but by the distance (the same could be said for Blushing Groom). I think it's difficult for Derby winners to shine now as the emphasis is more on 8-10f horses. Yet Camelot (who contains a line of your beloved Reform) and Australia seem to have gained some traction in the last few years. I think if we downplay the tradition of the test of the Derby we may end up celebrating mediocrity.
The other camp we both seem to have ended up in is the one that yearns for the day of tough horses.
I know what you mean about Epsom as it is a very unique racecourse. If the Derby had been run somewhere else Dancing Brave would have won.
He didn't act on the course and was that a signal that he might not be a good sire, which he wasn't? He was sold to Japan as a 7yo stallion and maybe the Epsom racecourse showed up the deficiencies he had that those early users of his services as a stallion didn't like. However he wasn't a disaster as a sire as he did sire a Derby winner and today he is in the pedigrees of Juddmonte horses through his daughter Hope. So despite being a failure as sire, as a broodmare sire he is represented by the produce of Kingman and Oasis Dream.
I think the Derby has given us great stallions, no more so than Galileo and Sea the Stars in recent times. You could also add to that Dubawi, who although only 3rd at Epsom wasn't beaten by the course but by the distance (the same could be said for Blushing Groom). I think it's difficult for Derby winners to shine now as the emphasis is more on 8-10f horses. Yet Camelot (who contains a line of your beloved Reform) and Australia seem to have gained some traction in the last few years. I think if we downplay the tradition of the test of the Derby we may end up celebrating mediocrity.
The other camp we both seem to have ended up in is the one that yearns for the day of tough horses.
Yes, Bustino, I’d totally forgotten about Blushing Groom, but my recollection of him in the Derby was that he was unsuited by the course as well as the distance.
I’ll try and find a replay of that Derby and maybe think again.
And certainly, I do yearn for “tough horses” and especially “stayers.”
The days of those wonderful stayers like Trelawny, Grey of Falloden, and John Cherry, are long gone but special memories of them perpetuate.
Also, other special visions of certain racecourses like Newbury where R.J.Colling/Dick Hern would run so many of their horses to start off their season. First around the bend at Newbury, you just knew they would gallop on like lions.
As for Reform, I make no apologies for loving the horse despite his sad omission from the 2000 Guineas. And I should have loved to see him contest the July Cup. He’d have won it doing handsprings.
How sad that, in the following year (‘68) one of your favourite horses, Remand, did not dethrone Sir Ivor.
As a two year old, I thought he was the most promising prospect that Dick Hern ever trained.
Enough of the nostalgia!
I’ll try and find a replay of that Derby and maybe think again.
And certainly, I do yearn for “tough horses” and especially “stayers.”
The days of those wonderful stayers like Trelawny, Grey of Falloden, and John Cherry, are long gone but special memories of them perpetuate.
Also, other special visions of certain racecourses like Newbury where R.J.Colling/Dick Hern would run so many of their horses to start off their season. First around the bend at Newbury, you just knew they would gallop on like lions.
As for Reform, I make no apologies for loving the horse despite his sad omission from the 2000 Guineas. And I should have loved to see him contest the July Cup. He’d have won it doing handsprings.
How sad that, in the following year (‘68) one of your favourite horses, Remand, did not dethrone Sir Ivor.
As a two year old, I thought he was the most promising prospect that Dick Hern ever trained.
Enough of the nostalgia!
Hern said he was the unluckiest horse he ever trained. He beat Connaught half a length giving him 3lb, so a literal reading of form says Remand was 3 and 1/2 lengths better than Connaught. Sir Ivor beat Connaught a length in the Derby. In the Epsom parade ring Hern said Remand's coat wwas sticking up like a porcupines. He was so ill afterwards that he almost lost his hooves and could not be reshod until the next Spring.
Jakie Astor must have been the unluckiest owner he trained for.
Jakie Astor must have been the unluckiest owner he trained for.