But the evidence doesn't really support your case, RBF. If the fans at home were to blame and dragged the team down, while the away fans were 'exemplary', how do you explain the fact that the home form stood up almost to the very end whilst the away form has been abysmal for this entire season? Surely if the home fans were to blame, we would have seen the opposite - excellent performances away from Carrow Road when the pressure was off?
Chris Hughton
- Thread starter Hugh Briss
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But the evidence doesn't really support your case, RBF. If the fans at home were to blame and dragged the team down, while the away fans were 'exemplary', how do you explain the fact that the home form stood up almost to the very end whilst the away form has been abysmal for this entire season? Surely if the home fans were to blame, we would have seen the opposite - excellent performances away from Carrow Road when the pressure was off?
Oh dear vietnam, I don´t know how many more times I´ve got to keep trying to explain this, a section of the home support for most of this season have taken every opportunity to vent their anger and frustration at Hughton whenever remotely possible, and that has been partly to blame for some of our results. Certainly the home form hasn´t stood up to the very end or even almost to the very end. September - A. Villa (h) defeat, October - Cardiff (h) draw, December - Fulham (h) defeat, January - Newcastle (h) draw, those 4 have done as much as anything else to leave us where we are today, if we´d taken 12 points instead of 2, we know where we´d have been now. The explanation for the run of poor away games, is that we´re just not very good away from home as is shown by the points that we´ve thrown away in some of those too, Cardiff and Villa particularly spring to mind, but also C.Palace and W. Ham where we had plenty of chances but just blew it, and even, dare I say, Fulham with our new leader.
Sorry, didn´t get to say all I wanted to say before, as I had to go out with the hound, got a bit more time now, so to continue...................
the point is vietnam, we´re only a bottom half of the table team, a bottom half of the table club, if you like. We´ve been up here for only 3 years, when we´ve been up here for ten, then maybe we can begin to think of ourselves as a mid-table or upper mid-table side. And for teams like us, we´re always going to be reliant on our home form to pick up the points that we need. Home games are vital, and by the same token 100% home support is vital, and that´s what for most of the season, Hughton hasn´t had, which has been my biggest bugbear. Irrespective of how he set his team up, or how he got them to play, a section of home fans were far too quick to turn on him, and that affected him and the players. We know that quite clearly to be true, as several senior players publicly called for fans to lay off him and start getting behind him and the team. If we go down this year, it will be because we haven´t won some home games ( f. ex the four I mentioned) that we ought to have done, not because of any away games that we ought to have won, because for a club like ourselves, in the Premier League there are none that we ought to win. We can never just expect to go away to any side, and walk off with the points, even top 6 sides can´t do that, anything we pick up away from home is a bonus.
I won´t change my opinion on this, a section of home supporters are partly responsible for our current predicament, and if we´re relegated, they´ll be partly responsible for that too.
the point is vietnam, we´re only a bottom half of the table team, a bottom half of the table club, if you like. We´ve been up here for only 3 years, when we´ve been up here for ten, then maybe we can begin to think of ourselves as a mid-table or upper mid-table side. And for teams like us, we´re always going to be reliant on our home form to pick up the points that we need. Home games are vital, and by the same token 100% home support is vital, and that´s what for most of the season, Hughton hasn´t had, which has been my biggest bugbear. Irrespective of how he set his team up, or how he got them to play, a section of home fans were far too quick to turn on him, and that affected him and the players. We know that quite clearly to be true, as several senior players publicly called for fans to lay off him and start getting behind him and the team. If we go down this year, it will be because we haven´t won some home games ( f. ex the four I mentioned) that we ought to have done, not because of any away games that we ought to have won, because for a club like ourselves, in the Premier League there are none that we ought to win. We can never just expect to go away to any side, and walk off with the points, even top 6 sides can´t do that, anything we pick up away from home is a bonus.
I won´t change my opinion on this, a section of home supporters are partly responsible for our current predicament, and if we´re relegated, they´ll be partly responsible for that too.
RBF old boy I do think you have a point.
Certainly the fans should take some responsibility for our ultimate predicament.
But equally I think it all started with Hughton making it clear he didn't think much of the quality of players at Norwich right at the beginning. I felt that shaped his attitude right from the start - and in a sense he was justified to play conservatively with Lambert's squad when there was clearly a dearth of strength in depth. However, patience for me ran out when he appeared not to have faith in the quality of his own signings
It's something of chicken and egg, though. I think we can all agree that we shouldn't be relegated with the squad we have as compares some of the other teams in the division, but also that it is a fine margin. Would we have stayed up if the fans had properly got behind Hughton? Maybe. But then you have to expect at least a couple of bad defeats at home. Would we have stayed up if Hughton had got a few more points on the road by trusting the players off the leash? Maybe. But equally points on the road are always going to be more difficult as you say.
So at this stage I think everyone has to shoulder the blame, and obviously the players and the manager have to take a big chunk of that. Hughton's been and gone, it's out of his hands. No point crying over spilt milk. Now we just have to ensure we're behind the team for the last push. I'm happy because the last couple of games show that at least we are not going to get relegated with a whimper, which was my fear at one point
Certainly the fans should take some responsibility for our ultimate predicament.
But equally I think it all started with Hughton making it clear he didn't think much of the quality of players at Norwich right at the beginning. I felt that shaped his attitude right from the start - and in a sense he was justified to play conservatively with Lambert's squad when there was clearly a dearth of strength in depth. However, patience for me ran out when he appeared not to have faith in the quality of his own signings
It's something of chicken and egg, though. I think we can all agree that we shouldn't be relegated with the squad we have as compares some of the other teams in the division, but also that it is a fine margin. Would we have stayed up if the fans had properly got behind Hughton? Maybe. But then you have to expect at least a couple of bad defeats at home. Would we have stayed up if Hughton had got a few more points on the road by trusting the players off the leash? Maybe. But equally points on the road are always going to be more difficult as you say.
So at this stage I think everyone has to shoulder the blame, and obviously the players and the manager have to take a big chunk of that. Hughton's been and gone, it's out of his hands. No point crying over spilt milk. Now we just have to ensure we're behind the team for the last push. I'm happy because the last couple of games show that at least we are not going to get relegated with a whimper, which was my fear at one point
Rob - as it ought to be clear to anyone on here, I am always behind the team and the manager, and like you I´ve been encouraged by what I´ve so far seen from Adams, but I will not just sit back and listen to Hughton again and again, being accused of solely tearing the club apart. It´s just not true.
I don't for a minute question your support RBF!
I do think even the most anti-Hughton fans have generally modified their tone a bit - usually having been jumped on quickly when they get hyperbolic. Only a moron cannot see that Hughton took the club as a whole forward and has laid the foundations to really ensure our club is in the best position to take advantage of first team successes, but equally only the most blindly faithful cannot see that Hughton's first team was suffering under him. To me (and I know I've said it before), Hughton is owed a big thank you for the internal changes he made to the club (scouting, training, youth, etc.) and a big thank you for steadying the ship after Lambert, but he fell short in taking the first team to the next level and the vicious spiral of deterioration in form exacerbated by the fans meant he had to move on, IMO.
The one thing I would say is that McNally has done Hughton a big favour in sacking him when he did. Huge. Hughton left with his reputation intact.
Well, if guiding a team from 11th place to 17th (and counting) is 'reputation intact' I'd hate to see what abject failure would be like. It's McNally's reputation that has suffered more greatly, as had he acted sooner, before the fans started to turn on the management regime en masse, we may not be in this poop. Look at Palace as a perfect example.
Looking at the bottom half of the table, how costly those losses to Swansea, West Brom and Fulham have been. No points for us, three each (desperately needed, too) for those three
Sorry RBF i don't really agree with what your saying at all. I believe that at the time of his sacking, our form was 12th best at home and I think 19th away from home. So by that rationale we were performing well into midtable in front of our unsupportive/detrimental home fans and as vietnam also highlighted above, horribly away from home infront of the more supportive away fans.
Your argument just doesn't add up.
If you look at each home and away game individually then you are correct it is the home form that will make up the bulk of your points but your suggesting that we should have played to a level higher, 10th, 8th 5th? in the home form table and then we'd be safe and screw the away form.
12th is as much as we can surely expect at home? We are little Norwich are we not? But if we are to ever stand a chance of staying comfortably in any division then 19th away from home will not cut the mustard.
In a nutshell fans not absolved of any guilt, but Manager and team far more culpable. Someone said it was like the chicken and the egg, I would say it was definitely more egg and omlet. The egg being Hughton's bland and uninspiring football, and the omlet the fans discontent. the egg being broken and with every passing minute in the PL heat the omlet cooked until it was done. How early you felt the omlet was done varies from fan to fan, but there are only one or two who really believe that it wasn't gonna be fully cooked by May!
Bah!
Well, if guiding a team from 11th place to 17th (and counting) is 'reputation intact' I'd hate to see what abject failure would be like. It's McNally's reputation that has suffered more greatly, as had he acted sooner, before the fans started to turn on the management regime en masse, we may not be in this poop. Look at Palace as a perfect example.
Looking at the bottom half of the table, how costly those losses to Swansea, West Brom and Fulham have been. No points for us, three each (desperately needed, too) for those three
I think it does, on the basis that we were five points clear of relegation at the time and I think it was widely recognised that Hughton's aim was to avoid relegation. The media faux shock that followed ensured that Hughton was portrayed as the victim too.
Yeah, McNally's rep amongst Norwich fans has certainly taken a hit, but equally if you really think about it I'm not sure it's entirely merited (taking into account position in the league, emphasis on continuity, etc). Our best chance of returning to the prem is keeping him on board - he transformed Norwich from a dreadfully run company into what we have today. Yes, he's made mistakes but in my book he's the biggest single reason for our success.
The loss at home to Fulham is the most painful memory for me, coming straight after a decent run of matches!!
Remember how "all the boys are right behind Hughton" and there's "a great sense of camaraderie in the dressing room"...
Well, according to Michael Bailey at today's Colney presser, not so.
*And this:
Well, according to Michael Bailey at today's Colney presser, not so.
*And this:
Hate to sound cynical, and I´m not being cynical by the way, but I wonder how much of that is to do with the fact that he´s got his place back.
True, plus no guarantees he's talking on behalf of the entire squad, but the 'feelgood factor' from Sunday won't have been lost on any of the players
One managers team who does well does not mean that when poached he will do the same for the next team, Football is not like that, you have to have the right players who can adapt to the managers way of playing, Look at Lambert for example, He could do no wrong at Norwich but at villa trying to play his way then they have not been very good. All managers have good periods and just because they was sacked by someone does not make them a bad manager and could go on to be brilliant at his next club.
Laudrup was a good example of someone who could not adapt to a way we played and he kept on changing things that led us to a poor season and a half under him, but he could do well at another club who knows, One thing he would not be the type of manager for Norwich as we have played similar football that brought us both great success playing under lambert,martinez and rodgers way. good luck on staying up...
Laudrup was a good example of someone who could not adapt to a way we played and he kept on changing things that led us to a poor season and a half under him, but he could do well at another club who knows, One thing he would not be the type of manager for Norwich as we have played similar football that brought us both great success playing under lambert,martinez and rodgers way. good luck on staying up...
I agree with much of what you say. While CH was correct in trying to change Lamberts style to be a bit more controlled and a bit more defensive minded, it did not suit the players we had. So he has to be held partly accountable for trying to play in a way that was not suited to our squad, while the players also failed in adapting to the changes. Faults on both sides for sure. Still its all change now and we will see what happens.
Rob has a point though, Hughton will no doubt get a job at a mid/upper championship team sooner rather than later, I'd expect him back in a job by Christmas to be honest. Look at Malky for example, he may not have kept Cardiff up had he had the full season, but we're still considering him a serious candidate for our next manager. Staying on to be sacked would be far more damaging.
Its not irrespective at all, Hughton was not chopping and changing styles.
Secondly, the point above had far more of an effect on the players
Your making inferences there that the team enjoyed playing under him, a very select few made comments about the teams performances being the source of blame. I don't recall them saying the fans should "lay off" the manager. There was never any ringing endorsement of Hughton from the players, saying how good he was, great motivator etc etc.
The home record is excellent, we will be relegated because of truly, truly dreadful away displays and instead of the home performances boosting the away displays, it was those continuously pathetic away displays that ground everything to a halt. It was just to much to gain confidence and a rhythm to our play. THAT was why the home performances fell away towards the end
Finally, nobody on here expected to regularly walk away with points from away games. But certainly for me, I expect us to at least pick up some points sometimes like every other team in the division.
Snodgrass, Martin, Johnson, Bassong and I think Ruddy, have all at some stage during the season, urged fans to start getting behind Hughton and the team, that´s 20 % of the squad after all. Poor performances away from home may have been partly to blame for some home performances falling away too, but lack of home support also played a big part.
I think our away form was what turned the fans, then we started losing at home, how do you expect the fans to feel?