Match Day Thread Chavs vs Red Devils

[glazerfodder]

Its still a team in transition, its evolving season by season in Ole's preferred style - but he can't do it all at once. He has got rid of players (by sale or loan) who were either not good enough or were overtly resistant to his management - Lukaku, Sanchez, Dalot and Smalling. He has replaced them. He still needs to get rid of the deadwood or those who have warmed the bench for too long - Jones, Rojo, Lingard and Mata. Window by window he will get these salaries off the books and will replace them with players more suited to his style of play. Some slack and some patience is all that is required.

 

[cytrax]

That's not really helpful tbh. Everyone is entitled to differing opinions. No point getting angry at other posters who are simply offering theirs.

I’m not angry at Christiansmith. But it is tiring reading all the excuses for stagnation. It’s like a mind trick that everyone is in on.

Regardless of whatever analysis anyone is prepared to offer, the performances over the past three years have been way below par. And the only reason why it continues, is because we will forever make excuses why it’s not “really” the manager’s fault. “Spend more and we will be challenging again “... the same nonsensical logic that is used year in, year out.

Before we go into the next transfer window, we must come to terms with the fact that Ole is not cut for it and acknowledge that we have never tried enough to replace Sir Alex with a manager that is tactically astute and knows exactly what he wants to execute against strategically.

 

[glazerfodder]

I’m not angry at Christiansmith. But it is tiring reading all the excuses for stagnation. It’s like a mind trick that everyone is in on.

Regardless of whatever analysis anyone is prepared to offer, the performances over the past three years have been way below par. And the only reason why it continues, is because we will forever make excuses why it’s not “really” the manager’s fault. “Spend more and we will be challenging again “... the same nonsensical logic that is used year in, year out.

Before we go into the next transfer window, we must come to terms with the fact that Ole is not cut for it and acknowledge that we have never tried enough to replace Sir Alex with a manager that is tactically astute and knows exactly what he wants to execute against strategically.

Excuse me, but are you seriously suggesting that you can't see the logic/benefits of investing in new playing talent - are you saying we keep the same players and what? Hope. Bizarre statement, every team wants to buy the best, to bring in new talent.................... and as for managers, who do you suggest we try next?

 

[Christiansmith]

I believe if critics had a balanced view it will be more credible. I was trying to provide a balanced view through my “long essay” because we’ve had enough long lists and long rants of why he’s bad. I agree with some of those arguments BTW but surely he has some positives even some here deliberately choose to ignore them. He is second when the RS are 6th and Arsenal are 10th. Chelsea are behind too. And we can all use so called facts to back our arguments up. Post Fergie, unbelievably we’ve never finished in 2 CL positions in a row. So for me if we do get a CL place I won’t dismiss as nothing especially if the likes of Arsenal and Spurs miss out. The football is far from perfect but at least now I want to watch instead of switching off with the likes of LVG and Jose.

 

[glazerfodder]

I believe if critics had a balanced view it will be more credible. I was trying to provide a balanced view through my “long essay” because we’ve had enough long lists and long rants of why he’s bad. I agree with some of those arguments BTW but surely he has some positives even some here deliberately choose to ignore them. He is second when the RS are 6th and Arsenal are 10th. Chelsea are behind too. And we can all use so called facts to back our arguments up. Post Fergie, unbelievably we’ve never finished in 2 CL positions in a row. So for me if we do get a CL place I won’t dismiss as nothing especially if the likes of Arsenal and Spurs miss out. The football is far from perfect but at least now I want to watch instead of switching off with the likes of LVG and Jose.

This.

 

[cytrax]

Excuse me, but are you seriously suggesting that you can't see the logic/benefits of investing in new playing talent - are you saying we keep the same players and what? Hope. Bizarre statement, every team wants to buy the best, to bring in new talent.................... and as for managers, who do you suggest we try next?

I can’t see the logic in suggesting that simply getting talents is the answer to our problems. We have wasted too many over the years and claim they were never good enough to play for the club. Just this weekend gone, THREE EX Manchester United players scored a goal each for Inter Milan.

As for who should be the next manager... Only Manchester United would suggest that there isn’t anyone in the world of football to take the role of manager.. this is another bs excuse, in my opinion. The world of football is full of top coaches, let’s find one that we need and do what it takes to get them.

Without a solid manager with a clear plan of execution, throwing money at more players will ultimately lead to another absolute waste.

 

[cytrax]

I believe if critics had a balanced view it will be more credible. I was trying to provide a balanced view through my “long essay” because we’ve had enough long lists and long rants of why he’s bad. I agree with some of those arguments BTW but surely he has some positives even some here deliberately choose to ignore them. He is second when the RS are 6th and Arsenal are 10th. Chelsea are behind too. And we can all use so called facts to back our arguments up. Post Fergie, unbelievably we’ve never finished in 2 CL positions in a row. So for me if we do get a CL place I won’t dismiss as nothing especially if the likes of Arsenal and Spurs miss out. The football is far from perfect but at least now I want to watch instead of switching off with the likes of LVG and Jose.

Christian, the problem with your excuses was laid bare few months ago...

Not to sound like a broken record, but when I mentioned that we would be no where near winning the title if we continue to struggle against our rivals for draws few months ago, your response was that it is perhaps the reason why we would win the title. Get results against 14 teams but get draws again top sides. Of course your thinking then was always fatally flawed because form is not something you switch on and off.

But fast forward to today with the league title out of view, you are now peddling the argument that second place would be an achievement when we are barely ahead of the team in fifth place. The next argument we will be having if we get dumped into 4th place would be that - “at least we got into top 4”.

I can’t find conference in that kind of argument. A cup half full is not a full cup.

 

[Christiansmith]

Christian, the problem with your excuses was laid bare few months ago...

Not to sound like a broken record, but when I mentioned that we would be no where near winning the title if we continue to struggle against our rivals for draws few months ago, your response was that it is perhaps the reason why we would win the title. Get results against 14 teams but get draws again top sides. Of course your thinking then was always fatally flawed because form is not something you switch on and off.

But fast forward to today with the league title out of view, you are now peddling the argument that second place would be an achievement when we are barely ahead of the team in fifth place. The next argument we will be having if we get dumped into 4th place would be that - “at least we got into top 4”.

I can’t find conference in that kind of argument. A cup half full is not a full cup.

So you think that if we don’t challenge for the title we are rubbish. Finishing second or even in a CL place is nothing. You are entitled to your opinion and I am entitled to mine. I never as I remember said we were challenging for the title. I said that it could be possible if we could beat all the others and draw with the rivals. But City is setting an incredible pace so that’s not happening. I think that in the current climate getting a CL place would indeed be an achievement. Not a great one to crow about but something to cling to. A step.

This argument is going nowhere. We simply have to agree to disagree. I’ve supported United for more than half a century. They are my club, my players and my manager. And while they play or work for United I’ll always support them and find positives in them. Including the manager. I find it incredible that a fellow supporter or fan could abuse his own manager like this. Maybe it is just me.

 

[Diego]

I can’t see the logic in suggesting that simply getting talents is the answer to our problems. We have wasted too many over the years and claim they were never good enough to play for the club. Just this weekend gone, THREE EX Manchester United players scored a goal each for Inter Milan.

As for who should be the next manager... Only Manchester United would suggest that there isn’t anyone in the world of football to take the role of manager.. this is another bs excuse, in my opinion. The world of football is full of top coaches, let’s find one that we need and do what it takes to get them.

Without a solid manager with a clear plan of execution, throwing money at more players will ultimately lead to another absolute waste.

And then start rebuilding the team with players that they need for their system/philosophy.

yay, start a new "project", what could go wrong (again)

 

[Christiansmith]

And then start rebuilding the team with players that they need for their system/philosophy.

yay, start a new "project", what could go wrong (again)

It is not as if we haven’t had the experience of 3 previous managers, Moyes LVG and Mourinho to go on. For United a new manager has proved a massive gamble. So far anyway. They all as you say find their own favourites and their pet hates. And they keep the former, get rid of the latter and bring in new ones. And it’s been the reverse Midas touch. Every golden player/manager touched by United turn to lead.

 

[glazerfodder]

I can’t see the logic in suggesting that simply getting talents is the answer to our problems. We have wasted too many over the years and claim they were never good enough to play for the club. Just this weekend gone, THREE EX Manchester United players scored a goal each for Inter Milan.

As for who should be the next manager... Only Manchester United would suggest that there isn’t anyone in the world of football to take the role of manager.. this is another bs excuse, in my opinion. The world of football is full of top coaches, let’s find one that we need and do what it takes to get them.

Without a solid manager with a clear plan of execution, throwing money at more players will ultimately lead to another absolute waste.

Who is the Messiah then - tell us ...................................

 

[cytrax]

Who is the Messiah then - tell us ...................................

Ole is the messiah!

 

[glazerfodder]

Ole is the messiah!

Excellent news, I can go to sleep now.

 

[cytrax]

Excellent news, I can go to sleep now.

Sleep tight, glazer! lol

 

[Christiansmith]

I agree with some of this but the part about how ppl would judge him if he was older or more experienced or the fact he was temporary or doesn't deserve to be managing United, I don't think are true. There are a minority who will hold that view, I know there will be a few who will have written him off from the start. BUT the vast majority of United fans I would put in the category of having reservations about but backing him and wanting him to do well.

If you see my post history, prior to this season I was backing him. My view has changed based on what's happened from this season largely although it would probably be fair to say the seeds were sown with those two semi-finals. He needed to reverse those this season as well as improve our performances on the pitch in league games and he hasn't done either for me. I dread to think how terrible the football would be if Bruno got injured.

I agree about Ole staying if we finish Top 4. I don't see that as progress though or any indication that we'll be challenging next season. If he stays he stays, I just hope he breeds a team of winners that's all. Because at the moment as Neville and Keane have pointed out, he hasn't. That HAS to change. And that comes from the manager.

This.

 

[Treble]

I’m not angry at Christiansmith. But it is tiring reading all the excuses for stagnation. It’s like a mind trick that everyone is in on.

Regardless of whatever analysis anyone is prepared to offer, the performances over the past three years have been way below par. And the only reason why it continues, is because we will forever make excuses why it’s not “really” the manager’s fault. “Spend more and we will be challenging again “... the same nonsensical logic that is used year in, year out.

Before we go into the next transfer window, we must come to terms with the fact that Ole is not cut for it and acknowledge that we have never tried enough to replace Sir Alex with a manager that is tactically astute and knows exactly what he wants to execute against strategically.

There's a lot in there I agree with tbh.

The problem isn't that managers such as LVG, Mourhino and perhaps even Ole were/are not good enough. The problem isn't even if you were to sack Ole who you would replace him with or that it wouldn't be a step forward. The problem is the people doing the appointing. Every one of those appointments was either unsuitable or rushed or both.

 

[Treble]

Btw I'm not enjoying watching us play atm bar the sporadic good performance.

We're grinding out results but it's not entertaining football in the least.

In those 7 games against the top teams, I'd happily accepted the risk of playing free-flowing attacking football for the sake of the 5 points we gained in them. Who knows we may even have won a couple and been better off.

 

[Chief]

I’m not angry at Christiansmith. But it is tiring reading all the excuses for stagnation. It’s like a mind trick that everyone is in on.

Regardless of whatever analysis anyone is prepared to offer, the performances over the past three years have been way below par. And the only reason why it continues, is because we will forever make excuses why it’s not “really” the manager’s fault. “Spend more and we will be challenging again “... the same nonsensical logic that is used year in, year out.

Before we go into the next transfer window, we must come to terms with the fact that Ole is not cut for it and acknowledge that we have never tried enough to replace Sir Alex with a manager that is tactically astute and knows exactly what he wants to execute against strategically.

I don't think you can have it all ways, if you don't spend, as you seemingly demand, is the coach still to be held culpable for those players who aren't good enough?

Or is he supposed to make them good enough, even if they clearly aren't quite good enough?

What I've defended throughout is his spending, all the players have been good. He very definitely needs to spend a bit more though as we need a quick and cultured centre half (only Maguire is a Solskjaer signing) and a longer term centre forward, as the only centre forward signings Solskjaer has made thus far made are loan or short term.

If Pogba leaves, he will also need to be replaced, although one would hope he does not.

At the very least, we need to sign those players, regardless of who is manager.

The transition is done then though. How many seasons do we have to keep claiming this? If Ole stays and goes into next season then we juts can't keep making the same excuse, it won't wash anymore.


My eyes tell me he falls short as a coach at this level though. It's there for all to see. I make no apologies for that opinion and, if he proves me wrong, then i'll accept I was wrong. I wish him every success, ultimately that's what I want as a genuine United supporter.

I don't care if his goal won us a European cup though, he has to perform and up his game and start trying to beat our peers, not just attempt to not lose to them.

 

[Christiansmith]

I don't think you can have it all ways, if you don't spend, as you seemingly demand, is the coach still to be held culpable for those players who aren't good enough?

Or is he supposed to make them good enough, even if they clearly aren't quite good enough?

What I've defended throughout is his spending, all the players have been good. He very definitely needs to spend a bit more though as we need a quick and cultured centre half (only Maguire is a Solskjaer signing) and a longer term centre forward, as the only centre forward signings Solskjaer has made thus far made are loan or short term.

If Pogba leaves, he will also need to be replaced, although one would hope he does not.

At the very least, we need to sign those players, regardless of who is manager.

The transition is done then though. How many seasons do we have to keep claiming this? If Ole stays and goes into next season then we juts can't keep making the same excuse, it won't wash anymore.


My eyes tell me he falls short as a coach at this level though. It's there for all to see. I make no apologies for that opinion and, if he proves me wrong, then i'll accept I was wrong. I wish him every success, ultimately that's what I want as a genuine United supporter.

I don't care if his goal won us a European cup though, he has to perform and up his game and start trying to beat our peers, not just attempt to not lose to them.

i can agree with most of your points. For me we need to assess at the end of the season (a position I’ve not deviated from). He may or may not pass the test but it is frustrating that when the time comes to replace him we still haven’t got in place a DOF. A position mooted more than 5 years ago. Why is it so ****ing difficult when many top clubs got one? I doubt that Ole is objecting to it. ( Jose apparently did).

Whilst OGS is here we need to support him and wish him to do well. Our own fans hurling abuse and calling him all sorts of names is not only disagreeable but utterly pointless.

 

[Chief]

I don't think you can have it all ways, if you don't spend, as you seemingly demand, is the coach still to be held culpable for those players who aren't good enough?

Or is he supposed to make them good enough, even if they clearly aren't quite good enough?

What I've defended throughout is his spending, all the players have been good. He very definitely needs to spend a bit more though as we need a quick and cultured centre half (only Maguire is a Solskjaer signing) and a longer term centre forward, as the only centre forward signings Solskjaer has made thus far made are loan or short term.

If Pogba leaves, he will also need to be replaced, although one would hope he does not.

At the very least, we need to sign those players, regardless of who is manager.

The transition is done then though. How many seasons do we have to keep claiming this? If Ole stays and goes into next season then we juts can't keep making the same excuse, it won't wash anymore.


My eyes tell me he falls short as a coach at this level though. It's there for all to see. I make no apologies for that opinion and, if he proves me wrong, then i'll accept I was wrong. I wish him every success, ultimately that's what I want as a genuine United supporter.

I don't care if his goal won us a European cup though, he has to perform and up his game and start trying to beat our peers, not just attempt to not lose to them.

Following this up, and this will no doubt have Cytrax frothing, I would add a right wing to that.

I think we should go back for Sancho.

I also think we dangle a massive carrot to Dortmund for Haaland while we're at it, but if he's unattainable go for Danny Ings perhaps?

I said when he was seemingly available at the start of this season to take a punt on John Stones and most laughed.
Seem to recall someone agreeing but that ship clearly now sailed.

Raphael Varane may be available?

Lot of money all that but it's got to be done, there's a few can be sold to recoup some of it.