Champions Day Sectional Times

Thanks for bringing some objective reasoning to the debate. I'll have a look at those times. Well done.

 

Ron.....The fact he has not ran fast times is down to circumstances not allowing him to, the only race everything was set up for a fast time was at the Royal meeting, and Queally as already explained, gave him a disastrous ride, and even then his time in comparison to standard was still better than that of Canford Cliffs in the Queen Anne.

Great Pidulski's post has blown all the doubters theories out the water, times need to be compared on the same day to get an idea of how fast the course was running, it's very naive just to compare times overall

 

Bluesky.....I'm sorry but there is no way in a million years So You Think and a bunch of pacemakers could get to the bottom of Frankel. You would need Yeats travelling behind a Ferrari with a giant wind shield attached to it

 

Ron, I thought you might appreciate this, from the BHA Handicapper’s blog on RP:



"Having spent most of Saturday afternoon, Sunday and Monday taking texts, emails and phone calls asking me "what's HE going to then?" I've felt a bit of a "party pooper" replying that the mighty Frankel will be staying on his pre-race rating of 135 despite his demolition of the QE II field, writes Dominic Gardener-Hill.

I have become a huge admirer of the horse, he's certainly the best miler I've seen, and would love to get him up to the sort of figures people feel would do him justice but cold, hard handicapping facts make that less than easy.

The key to the QEII for me lies in the performance of fourth-placed Dubawi Gold. Beaten six lengths by Frankel in the Qipco 2,000 Guineas at Newmarket he has never been better than 117 in my eyes in his eight starts prior to Saturday's race and I see no obvious reason why he should have bettered that figure in going down by seven and three quarter lengths at Ascot.

Building up from Richard Hannon's colt suggests that third-placed Immortal Verse has run to 115 (6lb below her Jacques le Marois performance but with an interrupted preparation and on ground that was probably faster than ideal) and runner-up Excelebration has performed to 125. He is currently rated 126 on the back of his six-length romp in the Hungerford at Newbury (7f) but this may prove the more reliable form although he retains his 126 for the time being.

Interestingly a four-length defeat by Frankel in the QEII mirrors exactly result of the Greenham atNewbury when Marco Botti's colt once again finished second, whilst he narrowed the gap to two and a quarter lengths when third to him in the St James's Palace when Frankel was not at his best.

This evidence, plus the increased margin of only one and three quarter lengths over Dubawi Gold suggests that maybe, just maybe, Frankel has not "progressed away" from his rivals as much as many think. In running to 133+ in winning Saturday's race, I believe Frankel did little or no more than when beating Canford Cliffs in the Sussex.

The suggestion that Dubawi Gold should set the level of Saturday's race is given further credence by the performances of Poet's Voice (6th -went into the race 114, ran to 115) and Side Glance (7th - went in 115, ran to 115), whilst pacemaker Bullet Train has mathematically run to 109 in finishing last of the eight runners despite going into the race rated only 106!

There can be little doubt however, that Frankel is currently the best racehorse on the planet. His rating of 135 still sees him 5lb clear of nearest challenger Black Caviar who will have little opportunity to better her figure before the end of the year, which should ensure Frankel takes his place at the top of the heap.

For those who believe I am undercooking Frankel's rating let me assure you there is still hope that he might end the year on a higher mark. When the World Rankings Committee meets in Hong Kong in December to discuss the year's performances, it might well be decided that 135 is indeed on the mean side and that he is deserving of a higher figure - I certainly would not object if that was the view of the Committee!

In the meantime let's forget talk of figures and bask in the glory of the performances of one of the finest thoroughbreds to have graced our sport in recent years....AND he stays in training as a four year old!!

 

So where does this 143 stand then? There's a huge difference between the BHA's rating and that of Timeform. How can two so called expert organizations be so badly out of step?

 

Aye Bullet Train was a red herring, going off way to fast for anything to realistically go with him thus ensuring a slow pace. IMHO Frankel is a 7f horse who's so good over 7f he is able to not fully stay and still win over 8f. If I were having a go at beating him I'd go with a pacemaker and horse that likes 9f but it still needs to be quality. There aren't many horses like that. You can be sure IF Frankel goes to 10f that other trainers will ensure the stiffest of stiff paces. If this happens and Frankel still wins I'll put my hands up.... and, for once, I really do hope I'm wrong.

 

Cyclonic, I think the key is that the two are not comparable. For example, SEA THE STARS official rating was 135but his Timeform was 140; the same for Dubai Millennium whose OR was 136 but Timeform had 140.

You can only really compare like with like.

 

Do the BHA have a rating list on the all time greats Princess? It would be interesting to see if all of the champs of the past are so different, or whether some of them are close.

 

Cyc....End of the day ratings are just an opinion, nothing more. They are not ratings "experts" either, or they wouldn't be rating horse's for a living, they would be backing them.

Phil Bull the founder of Timeform, used to make a living from horse's, and he was recognised as an "expert" he then started struggling to show consistent profit, so he then started selling his ratings to make a living. So Timeform was started by a man who was struggling to make a living from gambling, what does that tell you?

 

Quite a lot I suppose Shergy.

 

I don't know if BHA keep an ongoing list actually. In theory I supose they must do, but I'm not sure where yuo would find it.

 

I do agree with you Shergar, So you think would not beat Frankel with any amount of pacemaking going on. This was not what i i was suggesting but rather that if he is to be tested this is the way to test him, but i like you, believe he would still win well.

I tend to agree with George Wasingtoon that he's most effective trip would be 7f but his class (and he has buckets of it) allows him to beat anything at a mile also. This is why i have always wanted to see him sprint over 6f as i do not think anything would get within sight of him. If he goes to 10f however i think he will need rely on his class again to get him through because i have never seen a genuine 10f horse with that amount of speed. If he is a 10 furlong horse with that speed he is very much the freak some suggest he is.