Sectarian? Nobody mentioned that at all. Your grasp of the situation is very poor. I take it that once again you failed to read the post that was in reference to. It is clear you have the capacity to read, I think it would be childish to suggest that you can't. It is very evident that you have a blind spot when it comes to comprehension. Like I said, I have put my position as to why I believe Celtic park is an appropriate place to air my politics and singing them is the appropriate medium in which to do it in that environment. If you want to argue that point, lets do it, if you want to continue throwing barbs, I can do that too, but it is all so predictable don't you think?
I believe the point you had intended to make was " I agree with RL , everything he says is spot-on...as usual. He`s my favourite poster on here, by a country mile ."
RB my grasp of the situation is more assured than yours. Our club's reputation is being dragged through the mud and you couldn't care less. In fact, you are going to continue to do it. It really is that simple. You can try and dress this up in any old "history" nonsense you wish, but the fact is there is no justification for connecting Celtic Football Club with chants relating to a terrorist organisation - especially when that club are pleading for people not to do it. You are more than entitled to your views but the manner in which you choose to air them shows, at best an obstinate attitude, at worst an arrogant one. Keep your views on northern Ireland issues in Northern Ireland.
And you can airbrush this "history" any which way you chose, there will always be people there to remind you of it. For me to be obstinate, you would have to have made a reasoned point in the first place. Instead, you presented us with a received wisdom. A received wisdom that you have failed to present any justification for. You have invented figures and lied about the things I have said to try and hammer home your point. You haven't responded to any of the counter points raised, instead belligerently sticking to the mantra that you failed to justify in the first place. And "arrogant"..... Hmm right, so someone thinks they can be the sole arbiter of who is and isn't an idiot based on things they have not a single clue about. That smacks squarely of arrogance to me. There is only one person here saying there is no room for the other. So go on, specifically what songs offend you and why? I am asking you to present your case.
I never comment on this stuff on here as Rebel is more that capable of putting it across by himself. The truth is Cossy, you wouldn't have a club to defend if it was not for the Irish. If all Irishness was taken out and the Irish people were to be deleted(which you are advocating) from your club then you would have a club like Hibs. A nothing club. Without the Irish and our spending CFC would be another backwater club. You talk without any sembelence of any historical thought. You talk about keeping Irishness on this side of the Irish Sea. If that happened you would be watching Old Firm games with a half empty stadium. Be careful what you wish for.
Ciaran you are missing my point entirely. I have no problem with Ireland or the Irish. I have never denied Celtic's Irish roots. How can I? What I won't abide though is the politics of another country being used to sully the name of the football club I support. Just because Celtic has Irish connections doesn't mean that it has to have Ireland's politics thrust upon it.
RB anything that glorifies the IRA. Simples. The board don't want it. The majority of the fans don't want it otherwise they'd all be singing them week in and week out. But they don't. And the manager only yesterday asked for a second time that the small minority of fans stop singing those songs. A Scottish club singing songs about Irish issues? I've criticised rangers fans for doing it and I've criticised Celtic fans for doing it. Irish issues have no place at a Scottish football game. It really isn't very hard to get your head around.
This is a subjective term. I have asked you to be specific. Please can you elaborate for me. You have been asked to prove this on more than one occasion. If you cannot do this, stop repeating it as a fact. Your illogical extrapolation leaves me cold. Lets be honest about this, your entire post has added nothing to this debate at all. I am trying to engage you but your responses lack any substance. It appears that you lack confidence in your argument which is why you revert to repeating your mantra. It is extremely ironic that you chose to use the word obstinate because that is exactly what you are being. If you want to engage, lets do it. If not, then this is going to descend very quickly. Specifically what songs offend you and why?
Rebel - I'd turn around the question and ask which specific songs you wish to continue singing and why? You've attempted to justify the IRA songs as part of 'educating' people a few times. Perhaps you could explain which songs you feel fulfill that role. By far the most commonly sung songs that mention the IRA are probably BOTOB and the 'Celtic Symphony'. I don't find either 'offensive' at all (although the ooh ahh up the ra line is moronic (as I may have mentioned a gazillion times )) but I'm sceptical as to their educational value.
I have no problem answering that AP, but i would like to hear what Cossy has to say on the matter first. I did mention education. Some songs have the capacity to do that and others not. Some facilitate and inspire folk to educate themselves on the topic using different sources. I accept what you say about the Celtic symphony. I think we are broadly in agreement about it.
RB you have asked a question and I have answered it. The fact that you then seem to want to get down into the minutiae of what songs, how subjective and everything else goes to show that you haven't read what I've said or are having difficulty in understanding the very simple premise that I am working from. That is more if a reflection on your failure to grasp the points I am making than it is on any perception you have of me "failing to engage." You still haven't answered my point that the shankill is a more geographically relevant location for your point of view than Celtic Park is. Isn't that "failing to engage?" You have made mention several times of me not attaching a number to the vast majority of Celtic fans who do not want any IRA chants at Celtic games. It confuses me then that you feel it is okay for you to discuss the numbers within the Celtic community who support having republican songs sung at the games without providing any figures whatsoever. Hypocritical? Too right you are. You know that the fans and club and it's management want this chanting to stop. Yet, apart from unconnected whinging about the board and your hypocritical request for me to provide numbers, you have singularly failed to address these facts. You have chosen to ignore Neil Lennon. He has asked twice that people stop chanting these songs. If you read what he said yesterday he made it clear that there are a very small number of people who do this and he was appealing to them. Unfortunately for him, he didn't provide exact figures for how many this, so no doubt you will dismiss what he says as having no relevance and he is failing to engage in the debate. I'm not going to waste any more of my time corresponding with you. I have been going to see Celtic for over forty years. I have stood at CP when pretty much the whole ground sung those songs. It doesn't happen any more. The numbers involved have dwindled and dwindled and will continue to do so. The reason? Because as a support and as a club we have moved on. You have chosen not to. That is your choice. But as time passes your point of view will become more and more marginalised and, if you don't already, you will be at the game chanting your chants with all the panache of a drunk standing on the street shouting at passing buses. The rest of us will be getting on and supporting our football team. Hail! Hail!
You did not answer the question at all. If you are unable to answer, or you just donât want to, just say so. . It doesnât serve you or your argument to pretend that you did. I have read your posts, I have understood them. I have pointed out the gaping holes in that argument. I have answered that point. âI believe Celtic park is an appropriate place to air my politics and singing them is the appropriate medium in which to do it in that environment.â To elaborate further, I believe the Shankill road is a place where my point of view should be aired. I would adopt a different medium to air my views in that environment. Not hypocritical at all. I didnât invent figures to further my argument. You did. I know somc fans want thc songs to stop. I am not awarc of any chanting at all. Pcrhaps wc could havc cxplorcd that if you hadnât dccidcd that you didnât want to at lcast rcach an amicablc conclusion to thc discussion. You havc somc chcck saying that I havc ignorcd thc facts. I havc dcalt only in fact. You havc sccn fit to invcnt thcm. I have addressed this already. So presumably you were in a tiny minority then and as such you were wrong? That was rhetorical; I donât really care any more. You have abandoned any chance of reaching an accord by throwing in the towel. A bit selective there Cossy. It didnât have anything to do with the crusade by Fergus to combat bigotryâ¦..a problem that we didnât even have. He targeted the songs, but hey, you are no stranger to making things up, so it doesnât really surprise me. Oh, I donât doubt it. There is obviously a full frontal assault from the Police and the Scottish Government, aided and abetted by the board and their patsies to marginalise and criminalise me. Just like you they have chosen to dispense with fact. Just like you they have resorted to lies. Just like you they have chosen to dispense with reason. Just like you they have chosen not to listen to opposing voices. Just like you they have chosen to dispense with sensible debate. I am sure that once you have gotten rid of me, youâll enjoy yourself in an empty, silent Glasgow Hibernians stadium.
Rebel - just noticed an earlier comment of yours. You describe Lennon's recent comments about the chants (or more specifically Cossy's comment that the management team want to get rid of them) as "Monkey dances to organ grinders tune shocker". I have to say that seems incredibly dismissive. What leads you to think he is less than sincere?
I don't include you in that Pud. I don't include a lot of folk who disagree with me in that. You have stated your opinion from your own perspective. How could I not respect that? I cannot respect an opinion that says I should do X, Y and Z because the board of Celtic tell me so.
