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Catalan Independence and the EU

Discussion in 'Watford' started by colognehornet, Oct 11, 2017.

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Should the EU. recognize Catalonian independence ?

  1. Yes, on the basis of a nation having a democratic right to self determination.

    4 vote(s)
    57.1%
  2. No, because an independence declaration would be illegal under existing Spanish constitutional law.

    3 vote(s)
    42.9%
  3. Individual nations should decide for themselves whether to recognize Catalonia

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  4. The EU. should wait to see what Spain does before reacting.

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. oldfrenchhorn

    oldfrenchhorn Well-Known Member
    Forum Moderator

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    A lot of the calls for independence are no different to those coming out of Corsica ten years ago. Violence including bombing and murder happened far too often. The people there are a wild bunch in the south of the island with their own political parties that are unique to the place, and of course a language. To their credit the French government listened to the Corsicans and set in place reforms that would kick in over a period. Neither side got 100% of what they wanted, but there was enough in the deal to stop the violence. When I was last there the road signs were readable without the French being painted out and it was normal to see the Corsican flag flying alongside the French and EU ones. All in all it is now quite peaceful.
     
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  2. colognehornet

    colognehornet Well-Known Member

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    Are there any Corsicans or Bretons who don't understand French - I doubt it, or Catalans who don't understand Spanish Frenchie ? Over the years I have spent a lot of time in Switzerland and have actually found Swiss people who could not understand each other and chose to use English instead. Young people in the French speaking Cantons learn English and German at school - but the German is proper 'High German' rather than Swiss German ( the 2 are very different) and they have real problems in Zurich. German speaking Swiss can mostly handle the French because the French spoken in Valaise is not so different from real French. Swiss Italians tend to have German and English as their second languages and are lost in Valaise. In the Swiss Parliament those who are linguistically lost wear headphones, and behind the scenes English is often used. So there we have a nation who have real problems understanding each other - yet if I were to cast a bet then Switzerland would be the last country in Europe to split up or have an independence movement. Even the EU. could have a close look at Switzerland (rather than being always absorbed with itself) - look and learn.

    As an aside. I was in Corsica about 6 years ago and travelled by public transport from Bastia to Calvi - mostly by train, which took an eternity but was well worth it - wonderfull place and wonderfull people.
     
    #22
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2017
  3. Jsybarry

    Jsybarry Well-Known Member

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    There used to be occasional comments from politicians as to whether we should become independent, but each one has admitted that it would have to be done as the Channel Islands en bloc, not just Jersey on its own, This is about as likely as the proposal to change our clocks by half an hour so that we're between British and French time, but as far as I'm aware that was only mentioned in terms of Jersey, meaning that we would have a different time to the rest of the islands
     
    #23
  4. bragantino

    bragantino Active Member

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    1. The EU cannot think quickly.
    2. The EU does seem to be dragging their heels with the UK's succession and they weren't too keen on the citizens of the Irish Republic, Netherlands, Denmark and France voting against preferred EU directions, showing a reluctance to encourage separatism or independence of thought at any level within their remit - even if that is for another thread.

    One peculiar thing to come out of this is that some Brazilian politicians are looking at this with interest, especially the three southern states as one unit and the state of São Paulo as another. This has gone so far that Rio Grande do Sul, Santa Catarina and Paraná will hold their own independence referendum this coming weekend.
     
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  5. NZHorn

    NZHorn Well-Known Member

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    Wow! How is the central government responding to this?
     
    #25
  6. Bolton's Boots

    Bolton's Boots Well-Known Member

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    Doubtless in the same manner that they responded when a similar referendum was held this time last year. That was billed as an informal referendum, as is this one I believe, and the result was filed away somewhere, with no action taken. It resulted in a 95% Yes vote - but I suspect there was a rather low turn-out - around 600,000 voted in that - organisers are looking for 3 million voters this time. Should they get that, it may well result in a little panic within the financially poorer but more heavily represented northern states. I'd have no doubt that Westminster are keeping a weather eye open on the situation too.
     
    #26
  7. colognehornet

    colognehornet Well-Known Member

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    Separatism is definitely in the air at the moment but it would be a mistake to lump all separatist claims into the same basket. Some cultures are really fighting a battle of survival like the Tibetan or Kurdish identities and their struggles for autonomy or independence have a different quality to those of say Lombardy or Veneto - which. as far as I can see, consist of a middle class racist grouping which feels that they are paying too much taxes, and considers everything south of Florence as being 'African'. The claims of the Catalans or Basques fall half way between these extremes, being partly cultural and partly economic. Other claims - such as the Mercian declaration of independence - made by the 'Acting Witan of Mercia' in Birmingham in 2003 (there were actually only 3 of them) come over as rather funny. Actually they introduced the Mercian Penny exactly a year later - which they handed out free to anyone who wanted to register as a citizen of Mercia - by May 2009 over 2,000 people had actually registered as Mercian citizens ! Somehow the media never really cottoned on to this, and it remained one of the World's best kept secrets !

    The mistake of the EU. is to think that geographical history came to an end with it's creation. Borders have been constantly changing throughout history. Yet the assumption of the EU. is that the existing national borders are set for all time - as if history had suddenly stopped. If the future of the EU. is destined to be a community of regions, rather than of nations, then it has to develop the flexibility to move with that. The era of the nation state may well be drawing to a close - they are not big enough to compete in a globalized World, yet not small enough to guarantee grass roots democracy for all their citizens. Apart from which they do not have the financial resources of 40 years ago (most of the money has been privatized) and so they are allocating resources from an ever dwindling pot. Would Spain have come to this stage if it had not been for the politics of austerity dictated by Brussels ?
     
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