Match Day Thread Canaries v Irons

[DHCanary]

Apparently some NCFC "fans" followed Brandon Williams home after the game today, and were abusive. Needless to say, player isn't happy...

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[DHCanary]

I can understand the frustration, but that would be a recipe for disaster given our impecunious self-funding status, we have to concentrate on incremental development. Going into the Championship, we have a core squad which can do well.

Players who are struggling in the PL could do well in the Championship. The key, as always, will be how our young players develop and next year will provide that chance. Springett looked ok in a game which was already lost and Rowe is definitely first team now. We need a new quality CB and a quality DM, but apart from that, we should be ok until January with
what we have.

Oh yeah I largely agree, there's no way we can actually embark on a total rebuild and there's plenty of players in our squad who can hopefully do a job in the Championship. I'd add another midfielder, maybe even two more, to the shopping list, but otherwise agree on the squad.

I think a lot of our signings we hoped would be Premier League ready could do with a Championship season, hopefully they can look absolutely at home at that level.

But longer term, we really need to be in a position where only Hanley and Pukki are still starters if we do get promoted. If that's 4 signings this summer and 5 next summer, fair enough. But there's very few others worth holding on to. I hope the youngsters can step up, but plenty of young players get a couple of late season appearances then disappear entirely.

 

[Canary Rob]

Here is a list of permanent players I would happily have in our next Premier League squad assuming we manage to get promoted again (i.e. I think could still cut it in the premier league, either because they need more time or because they are good enough now):

- Pukki
- Krul
- Hanley

- Aarons
- Rashica

- Tzolis
- Springett
- Rowe
- Omobamidele
- Idah

- Sargent
- Placheta
- Sorensen
- McClean

I have put them in the groups above - genuine quality old heads, valuable assets, up-and-coming and controversial (but have something).

In retrospect it’s no wonder that we got relegated when we only had five players who I really have confidence are good enough, and none of them are central midfielders…

Both of our two valuable assets have had big question marks at times. To stay up, you need at least two players who really stand out and other clubs think “I wish”.

Five of the ones I have selected are high risk youngsters, who may well not make it and couldn’t have been expected to perform this season.

So the only central midfielders I feel we could take to the Premier League, I have put in the controversial box - McClean because I think with the right player next to him he can be quality, Sorensen because he looks classy but never quite there though has time on his side. I would consider putting Rupp in but he’s been injured too often and will be too old.

That tells me all I need to know and was probably obvious to everyone on here already: we have simply not had enough in midfield - not enough injury-free, consistent, battling, game-controlling, smart defending, crisp passing. I don’t think we need a player who does all of those things, we cannot afford Kante, but we at least need a mix with some of those attributes each.

 

[RiverEndRick]

I would add Byram to the first category and Dowell and Lees-Melou to the controversial group in that Dowell has key pass and goal scoring capability and PLM has key attributes like height and physicality as well as the ability to thread balls through to the attacking players and shoot from distance. He can be slow to drop back when the ball is lost though and his defensive work in general needs working on, which could be said of Dowell as well.

 

[DHCanary]

So the only central midfielders I feel we could take to the Premier League, I have put in the controversial box - McClean because I think with the right player next to him he can be quality, Sorensen because he looks classy but never quite there though has time on his side. I would consider putting Rupp in but he’s been injured too often and will be too old.

That tells me all I need to know and was probably obvious to everyone on here already: we have simply not had enough in midfield - not enough injury-free, consistent, battling, game-controlling, smart defending, crisp passing. I don’t think we need a player who does all of those things, we cannot afford Kante, but we at least need a mix with some of those attributes each.

McLean is a fine option to have in midfield, because he can do a bit of everything. He's clearly a big personality in the squad and a hard worker, I don't have an issue with him being in our squad. In the Championship he was good alongside a proper DM, and with the right signings and tactics I'm sure he can play a big role again, I'd just rather he was mainly on the bench in the Premier League.

But we only need one or two "Jack of all trades" players, whilst basically that's every midfielder we've used this season. I know I've made this point before, but PLM, Normann, Rupp, McLean, Gilmour can all "pass a bit", "tackle a bit", etc, but none are specialists. None are Premier League level at one particular skill. It left our midfield with ill-defined roles and responsibilities, and with no tools to cause Premier League teams a problem. In a midfield three, nearly all our midfielders would be passable alongside a proper DM and an attack-minded midfielder of similar quality, as long as we had players who specialise in those roles. I genuinely think Tettey would have had 20+ starts this season had he stayed, and probably improved helped us get better performances out of others.

I have no idea what Smith wants this team to be, hopefully with 7 months to plan this summer's business, he knows. But I really hope he recruits specialists. A genuine DM is a must for starters. I don't care if they can barely pass, Tettey couldn't for years but he was aware of that and knew to play it simple to those around him who could. Put someone next to them who can.

I really hope we get this summer right, the club can't afford to be complacent about anything. The relationship with the fans is seriously damaged, Smith is not going to get long to get this right in August/September before the fans will start wanting him out. I'm not sure at other clubs he would have survived as long as he has already.

 

[zogean_king]

We need to sort the midfield. A couple of signings and a few months of good training!

Smith if you read our posts please try Aarons as a right midfielder I think he would be good there.

 

[NorthCityCanary]

Here is a list of permanent players I would happily have in our next Premier League squad assuming we manage to get promoted again (i.e. I think could still cut it in the premier league, either because they need more time or because they are good enough now):

- Pukki
- Krul
- Hanley

- Aarons
- Rashica

- Tzolis
- Springett
- Rowe
- Omobamidele
- Idah

- Sargent
- Placheta
- Sorensen
- McClean

So the only central midfielders I feel we could take to the Premier League, I have put in the controversial box - McClean because I think with the right player next to him he can be quality, Sorensen because he looks classy but never quite there though has time on his side. I would consider putting Rupp in but he’s been injured too often and will be too old.

Of that list, if we have any ambition in the Premier League 23/24 (promotion depending) then Pukki, Krul, Sarg, Platcheta need replacing. Hanley I can only foresee as 3rd choice max.

Rashica and Aarons surely must be on the available to buy list between now & next season, they're 2 of the squad with highest retained value (balance the books, no external debt ad naseum....).

Unless Tzolis & Idah have some form of epic breakthrough this forthcoming season to show they can play consistently at championship level then add them to the sale list.
Sorenson, with right person playing next to him perhaps has a future here, same with McLean.

If Rupp could keep injury free for long enough I'd be happy to keep him, as Pukki & him seem to have an understanding in their link-up, though sadly Pukki's future impact on the EPL will diminish.

 

[DHCanary]

Follow up statement from Brandon Williams:

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[GozoCanary]

I'm not saying the content is untrue, but this certainly reads like something scripted by a PR person. It's hard to believe that the same person (Williams) created both the deleted tweets and this carefully worded message.

 

[Canary Rob]

Of that list, if we have any ambition in the Premier League 23/24 (promotion depending) then Pukki, Krul, Sarg, Platcheta need replacing. Hanley I can only foresee as 3rd choice max.

Rashica and Aarons surely must be on the available to buy list between now & next season, they're 2 of the squad with highest retained value (balance the books, no external debt ad naseum....).

Unless Tzolis & Idah have some form of epic breakthrough this forthcoming season to show they can play consistently at championship level then add them to the sale list.
Sorenson, with right person playing next to him perhaps has a future here, same with McLean.

If Rupp could keep injury free for long enough I'd be happy to keep him, as Pukki & him seem to have an understanding in their link-up, though sadly Pukki's future impact on the EPL will diminish.

Thanks for joking the debate NorthCity. Sorry, I hope you don’t take offence but I don’t really agree much with quite a bit of that I’m afraid.

Krul is 34, will be 35/6 if we get repromoted. That’s absolutely fine. Pukki would be a huge question mark, but he’s never relied on his pace so I would say it’s not out of the question that he could still do a job in just over a season’s time, especially off the bench and as an experienced dressing room type.

Sargent is the team whipping boy, but he’s 22! Given his price tag and promise, he needs a belter of a Championship season, but if he does that then he will deserve a chance in the PL. Tzolis and Idah are even younger - it would be madness to rule them out, even just as options to sell off this one season. Complete madness, they both have the potential talent - Idah is closer too and we need a striker to come good, so he’s as strong a bet at Championship level anyway. Let’s not forget we had Harry Kane on loan once… remember how that went?

I think Sorensen has been seen as a beacon of hope because he’s been spared exposure to the thrashings. But at the end of the day, he’s had less game time than the others for a reason - the manager has made a decision. Each time he’s played, he has given something away, a handball or losing a header at a corner etc. There is a reason both managers kept him in reserve. Don’t get me wrong, I like him and think there is potential. But he’s just as much, if not more so, a question mark where he will be judged on this Championship season. I think it risks the fans making a big mistake to jump to the conclusion that he’s our midfield answer.

 

[Canary Rob]

I'm not saying the content is untrue, but this certainly reads like something scripted by a PR person. It's hard to believe that the same person (Williams) created both the deleted tweets and this carefully worded message.

Its 100% written by a PR person/his agent. Probably linked to his parent club.

I don’t think that necessarily total rules out the sentiments though.

 

[GozoCanary]

Thanks for joking the debate NorthCity. Sorry, I hope you don’t take offence but I don’t really agree much with quite a bit of that I’m afraid.

Krul is 34, will be 35/6 if we get repromoted. That’s absolutely fine. Pukki would be a huge question mark, but he’s never relied on his pace so I would say it’s not out of the question that he could still do a job in just over a season’s time, especially off the bench and as an experienced dressing room type.

Sargent is the team whipping boy, but he’s 22! Given his price tag and promise, he needs a belter of a Championship season, but if he does that then he will deserve a chance in the PL. Tzolis and Idah are even younger - it would be madness to rule them out, even just as options to sell off this one season. Complete madness, they both have the potential talent - Idah is closer too and we need a striker to come good, so he’s as strong a bet at Championship level anyway. Let’s not forget we had Harry Kane on loan once… remember how that went?

I think Sorensen has been seen as a beacon of hope because he’s been spared exposure to the thrashings. But at the end of the day, he’s had less game time than the others for a reason - the manager has made a decision. Each time he’s played, he has given something away, a handball or losing a header at a corner etc. There is a reason both managers kept him in reserve. Don’t get me wrong, I like him and think there is potential. But he’s just as much, if not more so, a question mark where he will be judged on this Championship season. I think it risks the fans making a big mistake to jump to the conclusion that he’s our midfield answer.

I think this is rather harsh on Sorensen, Rob. First, he hasn't made a mistake each time he's played - he has generally added solidity to our fragile midfield. Second, his mistakes were not as egregious as those made recently by Krul, Byram and Gibson, for instance. The examples you give of Sorensen's errors were punished, and we tend to remember mistakes that are punished. For example, I remember two very poor mistakes from earlier in the season by McLean, carelessly giving away the ball and giving one of their players clear access to a good shooting chance, but he was lucky and neither led to a goal so they were instantly forgotten.

And who hasn't made mistakes this season? The lack of Aarons to be in position for their first goal on Saturday (or Dowell to cover in his absence) was just as big a mistake as Krul's eventual failure to save the shot. Sargent's miss against Brighton was much worse than anything Sorensen has done this season. And while I can't remember a glaring error from Gilmour, the endless succession of overhit and misplaced passes had much the same effect.

I'm not putting Sorensen forward as the answer to our midfield problems, but I want to defend him, as I would Giannoulis, because Smith seems to let some players get off unpunished while others are dropped instantly. Necessity may mean that Sorensen is kept in the side for the visit to Leicester, but if Smith had a choice I don't doubt Sorensen wouldn't play again this season.

 

[Canary Rob]

I think this is rather harsh on Sorensen, Rob. First, he hasn't made a mistake each time he's played - he has generally added solidity to our fragile midfield. Second, his mistakes were not as egregious as those made recently by Krul, Byram and Gibson, for instance. The examples you give of Sorensen's errors were punished, and we tend to remember mistakes that are punished. For example, I remember two very poor mistakes from earlier in the season by McLean, carelessly giving away the ball and giving one of their players clear access to a good shooting chance, but he was lucky and neither led to a goal so they were instantly forgotten.

And who hasn't made mistakes this season? The lack of Aarons to be in position for their first goal on Saturday (or Dowell to cover in his absence) was just as big a mistake as Krul's eventual failure to save the shot. Sargent's miss against Brighton was much worse than anything Sorensen has done this season. And while I can't remember a glaring error from Gilmour, the endless succession of overhit and misplaced passes had much the same effect.

I'm not putting Sorensen forward as the answer to our midfield problems, but I want to defend him, as I would Giannoulis, because Smith seems to let some players get off unpunished while others are dropped instantly. Necessity may mean that Sorensen is kept in the side for the visit to Leicester, but if Smith had a choice I don't doubt Sorensen wouldn't play again this season.

I don’t disagree Gozo, and don’t get me wrong, I’ve been an advocate for Sorensen too. I’m just saying there has to be a reason why both managers haven’t gone with the fans on playing Sorensen regularly. And part of that is he’s far from perfect. So just a caution - I still think he could come really good for us.

 

[Golden Eadie 2]

It seems to me that Sorensen has a much better football brain than several of the players who regularly start matches. Unfortunately he is not blessed with much pace which may be a major contributing factor to managers reluctance to play him.

 

[GozoCanary]

It seems to me that Sorensen has a much better football brain than several of the players who regularly start matches. Unfortunately he is not blessed with much pace which may be a major contributing factor to managers reluctance to play him.

Yes, but someone who reads the game well but lacks pace is still better in that position that someone who has tons of pace but can't read the game. Ideally, of course, he has both, but that's almost certainly going to be beyond us financially.

 

[DUNCAN DONUTS]

It will probably turn out that those fans following Williams in a car probably live near him.

Most cars around Carrow Road between 4 and 5pm were fans leaving the stadium .


Unfortunately football has it's share of morons and after yet another shameful drubbing and gutless surrender in this league some take it out on the overpaid entitled players by yelling abuse .

I'm sure things are said to Delia and others too.

Using Instagram to vent just shows him up as a bit stupid .

He's still a kid

 

[Golden Eadie 2]

Yes, but someone who reads the game well but lacks pace is still better in that position that someone who has tons of pace but can't read the game. Ideally, of course, he has both, but that's almost certainly going to be beyond us financially.

Bobby Moore is a case in point. He was quickish but read the game so well he was always in the right place. I believe it was Maldini who said that he didn't need to make tackles, if he did he had made a mistake.

 

[RiverEndRick]

Wayne Gretzky, the great hockey player, put it like this: "I don't go to where the puck is, I go to where it's going to be". Too often our players focus on where the ball is and are dragged out of position leaving gaping space uncovered on the opposite flank, which allows an opposing player to arrive unmarked to score an easy goal. PL teams seize on such opportunities ruthlessly. We need a DM who reads the game, but also commands the midfield to stop that happening.

 

[GozoCanary]

Wayne Gretzky, the great hockey player, put it like this: "I don't go to where the puck is, I go to where it's going to be". Too often our players focus on where the ball is and are dragged out of position leaving gaping space uncovered on the opposite flank, which allows an opposing player to arrive unmarked to score an easy goal. PL teams seize on such opportunities ruthlessly. We need a DM who reads the game, but also commands the midfield to stop that happening.

Yes, until this season I didn't realise how poor our play tends to be when we don't have the ball. Rather than this obsession with physicality and power and speed, I think the biggest difference this season between us and the PL pack has possibly been how much better they read the game off the ball. We are not well organised when we are not in possession. Farke can take a lot of the blame for this, but twenty-five games in, Smith has done nothing to correct it. In fact, judging by the last half-dozen games, I think it's got worse.

Exhibit A: the first goal for West Ham, when a WH player had acres of space because all of the NCFC players had followed the ball towards the centre of the pitch. And this is far from being the only time this has happened over the last ten games. Exhibit B: the second goal for West Ham, when our central midfield and defence were cut through like a knife through butter despite having (I think) four players between the passer and Hanley/Krul/Antonio because no one was in the right position.