You gotta love Rafas boy’s - an average Joe like Brucey comes and puts his reign in perspective and they start scrambling for excuses. I do like that we’ve seen how one of these supposed elite coaches does under constraints - turns out no better than the weak domestic options. It does make you wonder how they’d get on with a budget and board backing them. I thought it was a joke appointment but fair play he did a good job. Hughton, Pardew, Benitez, and Bruce all come out with enhanced reputations from working under Ashley. All 4 showed them self capable of dealing with extreme circumstances. I’d prob rank them: 1. Pardew 2. Rafa and Hughton joint 4. Bruce Hughton is a bit forgotten but brought us back from our lowest ebb. Put a good squad together which got us up. Built the base which meant Pardew could continue the work and take it further. Pardew delivered the best football, Europe and the flair. Consistent over longer period. He was a dick though with his behaviour and did have incredible lows due to putting his eggs in first team basket. Rafa brought us back from another low ebb. Got a bit of pride back into it. Built a good defensive base which Bruce. Pretty drab and has left us a bit one dimensional, but he liked to spread the limited spend across the squad so had less highs but less low ebbs. It tells a story though that Pardew, Hughton and Bruce can produce similar and in some cases better results than Rafa. Like or loath him Rafa is a cut above those mentioned on career achievements so it tells you what an equaliser Mike is. If we do get new owners though, I’m still torn whether I’d like Mike in the hot seat at Sunderland. The hilarity of them having spent years taking piss about him is somewhat tempered by the fact he’d prob see them alright up to a point.
Think you're letting the 5th season mask the ****e that followed. It was ****ing awful the season he left
Agreeing with Ben 10 here. Pardew definitely had the best team, many of whom he inherited, but without doubt got them playing the best football we've played since Bobby Robson was manager. By the time he left we were statistically in freefall though. I'd put Hughton top. He got us promoted playing nice football then carried it on into the Premiership (6-0 versus Villa, 5-1 versus Sunderland) and brought in a string of successful players for little money (Danny Simpson, Tiote, Ben Arfa and even Perch and Best gave us far more value than we paid for them). For me he's been the best under Ashley. I'd put Rafa and Pardew joint second and give an honourable mention to Bruce who did as good a job as either of them but hasn't had long enough yet to easily compare.
PS. Hughton was also the only manager other than Bobby we've had in my lifetime where opposition fans speak fondly of. He was/is an absolute gent and deserves to do well, got so much time for the guy with how he puts himself across.
Gotta say I don’t understand why you think we were in freefall, we were sat comfortably in 10th when he left and had a solid start. Halfway we were sat on 26 points, 5 points off Europe and 10 clear of the relegation zone. We’d won our last game and the fans were just pissy cause we’d lost to Mackems. He left us with a decent squad and in position to spend big in the summer which McClaren did. Don’t get me wrong I don’t rate him at all but the job he did here looking back was good. He inherited some decent players. But I’d struggle to think he inherited a team anywhere near Europe. If you take his European year out, which was affected by our frugal ways meaning we didn’t have squad to cope, he performed very consistently with one stellar season. Transfers for both him and Hughton are not an issue as they had lesser involvement. But if you look at what was added to turn that team into European contenders it was important. Immediately signed Ben Arfa, added Cabaye who was crucial, Ba and Cisse who were massive, Obertan obv did well that season for all he was a **** footballer, and we had Santon come in too. So there were a few changes. Plus he had to deal with us just being a stepping stone for likes of Ba, Cabaye, Debuchy. I think the sealing factor for me would be he stuck it out for 5 years which was incredible under Ashley. I think Hughton would have stuck it out too. Both improved us under ridiculous circumstances and left us in a strong position to maintain PL status. To be honest of course Ashley’s ways have massively held us back, but if you look all around it, McClarens reign looks more horrific and damaging by the day. Id struggle to see how Rafa could rank above Pardew or even alongside once you remove tge how they were liked factor. He didn’t stay as long and yes had a championship win, but achieved it with one of the biggest transfer spend in history. The year we finished 5th was by far a much bigger achievement. It was of course required but still, I think quite a few would have won the league with that squad. He of course kept us up, and did a solid job in the PL too but I couldn’t think he left us in a better position squad wise. Defensively yes, but he has left us a bit one dimensional. I can see the argument for Hughton though. I don’t think you can underestimate what he was faced with in footballing terms at Leyton Orient. That’s how you become the next Leeds. The players played a big part too but he created that environment.
He left us in 10th. Think you’re letting Carvers finish mask how he left us. We were in a strong position. A mirror of first half alone would have seen us amass 52 points. That would have had us 10th with the McClaren spend available (not that we’d prob have spent it in which case). Carver amassed half the points Pardew did. 13 points. Even if Pardew has only got 18 points we’d still have been in 11th. It was just post derby hysteria which came at a bad time as we’d lost to a Man U and Arsenal in tough run. We’d actually beaten Liverpool, Spurs and Chelsea that season.
Hughton has been the best. The way he galvanised the club after relegation and got us playing some terrific attacking football. Rafa second just because he got us back up and stabilised the ship. Pardew - reluctantly I have to praise some of his management. Inherited Hughton's talented team and at first had us playing some brilliant football. Then he started putting his personality on the team with his own signings and the to set in. Bruce has done an okay job. Have to remember though that this is the poorest PL in years. Any other season we would likely be bottom three based on performances. We have flunked wins because the other sides have been dreadful.
Fair points but Hughton brought Ben Arfa ( some real convincing had to be done) and then stood by the loan even when he had an immediate leg break. As regards why I think we were in freefall we'd just had our worst calender year ( something like 27 points in 39 games) and if I recall correctly it was the worst year of any team that avoided relegation until... He did worse with Palace a few years later. We're retreading old ground here and aren't going to agree as it depends how you weigh up results. The 12 months before he left our results were easily relegation worthy, my main issue was always that he never felt in control to me. We'd win three in a row and then lose a handful and he didn't give the air of someone why knew what to do about it. Hey ho, is agree he is not remembered fondly enough as we had some great times.
Your eyesight is going. You’re seeing things. On the plus side you’re imagination is working overtime. And I’ve told you before, don’t try and fob your castaway Zimmer frames on me. Give them to someone who actually needs them such as Jim or Dorty.
I don’t believe calendar years hold much water in football generally. Never have, I’m not really sure what they represent in football. It screams badly of having an axe to grind when it’s used to be honest (not suggesting that’s the case for you) or looking to gloss up the current poster boy team. It’s not like fans really feel it that way. Everybody operates season to season and rightly so. It’s quite silly really looking at results over two half seasons to judge a manager. So many factors skewing it from how fixtures fall to injuries etc etc. It is just nowhere near as accurate as individual seasons where all these factors are some what mitigated. The calendar year In question too would have been the back end of the Europa league run to the QF. We were crippled that season. To be honest getting to QF and staying up with those numbers was a very good result. I couldn’t really blame Pardew for that, it was being stupidly tight buying only Anita. Only Mike would do that. The permanent signing of HBA happened under Pardew. I think it was their first act but certainly Hughton or rather Graham Carr as it was at the time was responsible. Pardew nor Hughton can really claim much credit for signings or sales. As you say we just differ but I’ve always had a problem with how it’s twisted to use calendar years instead of seasons. If you offered me both now I’d take Hughton even though the football was more functional. Just a better bloke. Being honest though I don’t think he is all that great a coach either, certainly not someone I’d describe as dynamic. We’ve been fed average for ages. When we got something better in Rafa (I’d argue he is not in any way elite personally mind), we then hamstrung him too with the same constraints meaning he could do no better.
This is to balanced and well thought out. You cannot be a nufc fan. We are delusional and irrational. Your far to erm what’s the word. Normal. Please take your sensible fair balanced arguments and leave them outside.
Weren't we on top 4 form in the last 3 months of Rafa's last season and I believe 8th in the last 6 months. We were 7th in the conceded table for 2 seasons in a row. Our lowest since 2006. I would say that's a big improvement. As they say the best form of attack is defence. I don't know how you can say he didn't leave us better squad wise either. We have the best goalkeeper we've had in years. The best defence for over a decade. He's blooded in the Longstaffs. What's let him down is the attack, but that can't be helped when your aim is to survive.
Better than squad Pardew? Not sure myself and certainly the squad Pardew had at the point of getting 5th, if we’d invested properly then we could have kicked on. If you’d brought a better coach in to oversee that it would have been even more interesting. We had some decent players on the books but as with Rafas reign the money wasn’t there. What I mean is he has left us with a lot of players solely suited to playing counter attack football. You don’t have to play defensive to survive, it’s a myth. It’s perfectly feasible to survive that way and perfectly acceptable to adopt the tactics. You can also buy players that are more adaptable to defensive or offensive football. Because Rafa is a defensive coach it means he buys a certain type of player. He’s a weird one because when he has been given world class squads he largely isn’t successful. I mean Inter and Real he inherited great squads and basically had a mare. He is a funny coach because he has his own way which is successful but I don’t think many would want to follow his work as it requires huge turnover and change to go in a different direction. Excellent defensive coach though. Again looking at squads left it’s difficult to assess because of the structures here within scouting, and the restrictions. Can you ever truly say any of the managers had “their” squad? Not really. Form is meaningless too it only applies to that season. His results were good considering the circumstances. I just think Pardews were better. We’ve won nothing if significance over both, you can’t count Intertoto or Championship really. So it’s comes down to football and entertainment. If I had to have one reign over again, give me the rollercoaster and flair of HBA, Cabaye, the brutality of Tiote and killer instinct of Ba and Cisse any day of the week and twice on Sunday.
He didn't inherit a great squad at Inter. Mourinho left him royally in the ****, but that's typical Mourinho, doesn't give 2 ****s about any club he works at. Rafa had a severely ageing squad, mixed with untested youth players and all the best players sold off before Mourinho left, the owner decided not to give Rafa any money to spend because they were the champions. Rafa told them he needed significant funds because the squad is a mess and it needed a huge overhaul, the primadonna players who were looking for a pension rebelled against him, but no one listened and a decade later they still haven't won anything. Madrid was a different situation, they had already lined up Zidane, but felt he wasn't quite ready, Rafa was basically babysitting until they felt confident in Zidane. The fans rejected Rafa due to his ties with Valencia and his defensive style. Even still, he ended up smashing all attacking records in his short time at Real, they had qualified for the knockouts in the champions league and was only a few points behind Barca in the league. However the Owner kept getting involved and Rafas hands were tied, even having the team picked for him because they wanted their multi million pound players in the squad, no matter how unbalanced it was and Rafa kicked off. The embarrassing loss to Barca was a result of him being ****ed over. He even spoke out about it and said if you want me to coach, let me coach.
