British coaches overseas

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There's kind of an accepted idea that after the British spread football around the globe in the last couple of decades of the Victorian period, that foreigners took the game and became better at it than us. The story goes that we'd become so insular and sure of ourselves that being beaten by the Hungarians at Wembley in 1956 was a shock. Some people will tell you that we didn't really learn our lesson and it took us another 40 years, until Arsene Wenger turned up, to actually start taking coaching seriously.

That's kind of true but it's also not. It is true that up until, and after, the First World War, no English club would even consider hiring a professional coach. Mainly because coaching was something that Johnny Foreigner needed, us Brits were innately skilled and intelligent enough to play the game we invented without being told what to do. There were English coaches, such as Steve Bloomer and William Garbutt, taking football abroad though. English coaches were very much in fashion in Austria in the 1920s and they helped to kick-start the so called 'Danubian School' which led to the great Austrian team of the 1930s, featuring Matthias Sinderlar the 'paperman', and eventually to that Hungarian side that beat England at Wembley. Even later on, Vic Buckingham was manager/coach of Ajax between 1959 and 1961 and some people think he helped sow the seeds of what became Rinus Michels' totaal voetbal.
There's a good tradition of English coaches abroad. We just don't hear that much about it.

Garbutt was 1 of 2 English coaches (along with James Richardson Spensley) who ran Genoa C.F.C (Cricket & Football club, which tells you a little something about their origins). Genoa won 9 league titles under those 2 coaches, which is still the 4th highest in Italian Football.

The "father of Argentinian football" was Scottish - Alexander Watson-Hutton. His Alumni team won 10 titles before they were dissolved in 1913. They're joint 6th in the all time titles list with only the 5 "Grandes" being more successful (with an extra 100 years to do it).

Jimmy Hogan managed in Hungary for several years and was at the forefront of creating the foundations that Hungary built the Mighty Magyars on.

I love learning about some of the historical connections in football. We were pioneers and then we gave up the initiative for decades due to what largely seems like arrogance. It's all so incredibly Engish.

 

[Monkey69]

He'd managed in woman's football for 12 years and then men's for 5 (where he's got the greatest ever generation of Canadian footballers to manage). All at international level and at Canada for over a decade.

It's a completely bizarre CV to judge. What level of teams do you think he should be on shortlists for?

I think he plays a attacking style of football and when watching Canada they were competitive and good to watch I don't think it is beyond him to manage in Prem but realistically could see him at a club like Watford or maybe even Crystal Palace but think he needs to prove he can do the job week in and week out and not just international. But if managers like Jesse Marsch can have a go then don't see why Herdman can't.

 

[FellTop]

I wont post a long bit on coaching cycles now, but it has tended to be cyclical. The spanish and dutch model of coaching was a response to feeling they couldnt compete with an english side so physical and pacey, or a german side so well organised. Germany went and learned much about spanish coaching and stepped up. England studied france, germany and spain and stepped up a lot in coaching standards. Spain and Italy have recently tried to learn about the english approach.

I think we sometimes forget how top european clubs looked to us for coaches relatively recently. Bobby Robson was the most respected coach across the continent. Venable and Toshack were successful in Spains big clubs. Those guys went with so much knowledge already gained though. What Robson did at Ipswich was unreal really.

More recently our reputation has been damaged. Souness went and planted a flag in a turkish centre circle. Neville did who knows what in Spain.

I can see british coaches being sought after again. Potter will get his chance again, and you can bet De Zerbi is telling people about him. Southgate will get a good job in Europe I am certain, if he wants it. Eddi Howe, sadly, is doing a very good job and is a really talented coach. I would even say Brendan Rogers could be a very good coach for a european side to take. He can play more than one way and that is no bad thing.

 

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I think he plays a attacking style of football and when watching Canada they were competitive and good to watch I don't think it is beyond him to manage in Prem but realistically could see him at a club like Watford or maybe even Crystal Palace but think he needs to prove he can do the job week in and week out and not just international. But if managers like Jesse Marsch can have a go then don't see why Herdman can't.

Jesse Marsch has a CV which is lightyears ahead of Herdman.

He spent 3 years at New York Red Bulls where he recorded the most wins in their history. He was highly rated enough that he went and spent a year as assistant to Rangnick at Leipzig before taking over at Red Bull Salzburg. At Salzburg he won the double 2 years running and had an almost 70% win rate. He then went to Leipzig where it didn't work out and spent a year at Leeds where he was sacked, despite a record that was better than fan favourite Bielsa's last season in charge.

I'm not suggesting he's a superb manager, but he's far better than many others who have been sacked from the bottom half of the prem, but gets more ridicule because he's American. He earned his chance. Herdman has managed Canada's golden generation and women's football. He's not close to earning it yet, in my opinion.

His attacking style of football saw Canada lose all 3 games, scoring only 2 goals, playing the best left back in the world as an attacking midfielder and getting no returns from a £30m striker. It's easy to be reckless when you have no expectations on you, there's nothing to lose. Premier Leagues have everything to lose.

 

[Monkey69]

Jesse Marsch has a CV which is lightyears ahead of Herdman.

He spent 3 years at New York Red Bulls where he recorded the most wins in their history. He was highly rated enough that he went and spent a year as assistant to Rangnick at Leipzig before taking over at Red Bull Salzburg. At Salzburg he won the double 2 years running and had an almost 70% win rate. He then went to Leipzig where it didn't work out and spent a year at Leeds where he was sacked, despite a record that was better than fan favourite Bielsa's last season in charge.

I'm not suggesting he's a superb manager, but he's far better than many others who have been sacked from the bottom half of the prem, but gets more ridicule because he's American. He earned his chance. Herdman has managed Canada's golden generation and women's football. He's not close to earning it yet, in my opinion.

His attacking style of football saw Canada lose all 3 games, scoring only 2 goals, playing the best left back in the world as an attacking midfielder and getting no returns from a £30m striker. It's easy to be reckless when you have no expectations on you, there's nothing to lose. Premier Leagues have everything to lose.

If you read my post I said I liked the style of football he tried to play and not his tactics, and I am not sure that Canada have ever had a golden generation of footballers. My comment is that I would like to see if he is up to the task. There are managers out there who may well be very good and as you state JM had a good win percentage at New York red bulls got a chance at Salzburg and then Leipzig my point was not that he did not deserve a shot but that if he can earn a shot then why not a guy who has worked in women's football and then moved into men's football. JM career is solid but predominantly under the Red Bull umbrella which has given him his chance but he did seem a little out of his depth however I do think the experience of managing Leeds will help him down the line. However my point is that ther are managers out there who may be a little left field but who can offer something different