Being tolerant of all races is not a default setting. It is a mindset which has developed with civic society, often linked to higher ideals (such as national identity rather than ethnic,racial identity). Flags, and other symbols, have been used to bring people together throughout history, as well as driving them apart. Human instinct at its most basic(default) setting is primarily looking after; a) yourself ;b) your family; c) your clan/tribe/ethnic group... in that order. If anything, a strong (positive) national pride can override these to achieve something better- such as the good of society as a whole. Yes, it can be misused, (can't everything be misused?) but it is an over reaction to insinuate, by association, that national pride at a football match is something to feel overtly uneasy about. Oh, by the way ..
All these predate the Nazi's by many years. Not sure about some of the images though! Please disregard them. [video=youtube;isJPWLtCZK0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=isJPWLtCZK0[/video]
Well I am going to have to disagree about the best Military Marches. That title has to go to the Yanks, or more specifically Sousa who wrote some very uplifting stuff such as Semper Fidelis. Anyone who wrote Liberty Bell is getting my vote, and to be fair anyone who disagrees is likely to be crushed under a huge dismembered foot. With resect to the more serious stuff, I do think that flag of St George was rescued from the nutters somewhat during Euro '96. The problem with flags is when only the ultra-nationalists are waving them.
Exactly! Although, I don't buy the association of the CoSG with the far-right, pre- Euro '96. I believe it was the Union flag which was always associated with the NF and its ilk. Most people were blissfully unaware of the CoSG because they had subsumed their English identity within a British one. (Witness the sea of Union flags at Wembey in 1966). Bang on about the nature of the flag waver, not the flag!
I agree that waving the St George cross at a football match is not the problem, but seeing hundreds of adult men holding their arms out wide to imitate the action of a aircraft bomber and singing about the action of bombing citizens does not sit easy with me, it is extemely crass and disrespectful, as is the practice of booing National Anthems of other countries. There is no point denying that there is a sizable minority of English football fans that go to the games hell bent on causing offence and trouble. They may not sing Nazi songs, but they follow their ideology, check out the Combat18 website. I must also say that the Daily Mirror is not really representative of any liberal (with a small l) minded person, it is a tabloid paper and will say anything to sell papers, that includes its' 'support' of the Labour party.
Carlsberg is ****e, as is Carling. I don't know of a lager/pilsner that is any good that is actually brewed in this country. You have to buy czech, German, Polish, Latvian, Lithuanian, and numerous others to get any real body to your beer. Only problem is that they tend to be all around 5% or up. Also, the really cheap lagers like Fosters, carling etc, are not even made with real hops, but hop oil. Now Ale, thats another thing, and something that we are very good at, my latest favourite being Hopsmack, made by an airline pilot in his garage. The advert isn't bad though!
We may still have these primitive instincts in us, but this is not all that makes up the "default setting". We have all been born into a society which does not tolerate racism or any similar form of prejudice, and therefore that is the default setting. We are born with our minds a blank slate. I never said there was anything wrong with national pride at a football match. I already went over the difference between national pride and patriotism.
Did you know Channon, that Sousa originally wrote/intended some of his marches as embryonic symphonic pieces of a much slower tempo? They received mixed reviews from close friends and he rewrote them with repeats, counter melodies (for what ever passes for a Euphonium in the US?), trios and da Capos with a strict 120 pace and the rest was history.
You seem to enjoy separating patriotism away from national pride. My own patriotism is formed of national pride. As is many others I would presume. I'm not telling you what you can and can't think, just voicing my opinion, that the only people who will see patriotism as xenophobia and such, are those who aren't fully comfortable with showing patriotic values and therefore look down upon those who do. No one is ever born with a blank slate. Everyone is influence by those around them, and predominantly that means your parents and your grandparents (while you are growing up and forming opinions and knowledge).
Oh, it has been such a long time since I saw a decent Da Capo! Of course as the music was printed on a bit of 9x5 mounted on card, you didn't have the luxury of printing it out long-hand. Lots of double-dots. I didn't know that factoid about Sousa so thanks for the info. His stuff is much better than the rather turgid Teutonic tunes.
Primitive or natural? Putting your kids before people you've never met, is primitive? We have been born into a country and society which, by dint of many hard won rights and privileges, is broadly tolerant. A tolerance which apparently for some does not stretch to public displays of pride in the symbol of that country. I am not arguing about your interpretations of patriotism vs national pride, rather your assertion that the sight of people wearing a flag automatically brings up talk of racism and nationalists. "Is it just me who feels slightly uncomfortable seeing people draped in England flags? Racists and nationalists have ruined that for the rest of us." BTW what is a nationalist? According to the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy: "The term “nationalism” is generally used to describe two phenomena: (1) the attitude that the members of a nation have when they care about their national identity, and (2) the actions that the members of a nation take when seeking to achieve (or sustain) self-determination." 1) could refer to the Women's Institute 1) and 2) to Alfred the Great I've yet to find any reference to nationalist or patriot which stipulates a need to have feelings of superiority over, or xenophobia towards, others. I'm sure some bozos will express it that way.(There's always some). My reaction when I see people draped in their England flags is "My, aren't there a lot of them in Stuttgart/Capetown/Tokyo" They're waving flags, not burning the Reichstag.
I am patriotic about England, but certainly not racist. (I am 1/2 Italian and 1/2 Indian but born in England!). During football tournaments I show the flag of St George and the Union Jack will no doubt be flown around the Jubilee. I am proud to be British - there is nothing wrong with that. Granted extremists do take it too far (the clue is in their name), but that should not stop us from being proud of our heritage and of what we are as a nation. Do you wear your colours to Saints matches? Would you hold up a Saints flag? Exactly, it is about being proud, not superior (though to Pompey we clearly are ) just my 2p worth...
Turgid Teutonic tunes! I once sat and listened to the entire Wagner Ring cycle in one go! The Georg Solti recordings of course, the bit in Das Rheingold where the Nibelungs are hammering in their mine, is one the most eerie moments in music, I absolutely love it.
The worst "turgid Teutonic tune" (good Germanic alliteration there) is our National (British) Anthem! Wagner, Beethoven,Mozart, Schubert, and all the Strausses could knock out a good tune! Carl Teike, who wrote Alte Kameraden, understood military marching music. At the risk of sounding too patriotic for some on here, I think we can match anyone (especially when performed by the band of HM Royal Marines)
"Is it just me who feels slightly uncomfortable seeing people draped in England flags? Racists and nationalists have ruined that for the rest of us." ......... "We may still have these primitive instincts in us." I'm quite confident that I know exactly where you're coming from. Your first reaction to the image of a mildly patriotic video was to try and associate it with racists and xenophobes - however indirectly you put it! So, enlighten me. What did you mean?
What did you think I meant by "the rest of us"? My point has always been that a small minority of "patriots" are very vocal about their xenophobia/racism and they use the English flag as a symbol. please log in to view this image You've interpreted my comments as if I'm saying patriotism = racism. You don't have to get all defensive about your patriotism because you don't want to be associated with the scum pictured above. All I'm saying is that the England flag, outside of a football stadium, has this reputation now. It's commonly being used as a symbol of hate, and as I live just 5 minutes down the road from Luton I can vouch for that. If you see St. George's Cross around here, the first thing that comes to mind is racial intolerance. Sad but true. Oh and my other point was that patriotism, though mostly harmless, is also totally pointless.
Nice picture They look really scary Almost as scary as Andy Chowdhary and his happy bunch! ....The EDL !! ...They've only been around for 3 years or less. They wouldn't even exist if Mr Chowdhary and his peaceful protesters hadn't abused and threatened British soldiers coming home from Afghan. The cross of St. George has been our flag a wee bit longer than 3 years! Don't blame the extreme right for your involuntary reaction to the sight of this flag. Blame the left. For decades, any show of national pride has been sneered at, belittled, labelled pointless. NOW they are worried that the right have hijacked it. Billy Bragg wants to claim the symbol back. He's probably a racist xenophobe? BTW I'm not being defensive about my patriotism. I'm happily and openly proud of my country. I'm just wondering why your first comment on a harmless, fun video was to link the flag with "racists"? I'm sure most of us on here-"the rest of us" weren't that exercised by it. I smell an agenda.
For good reason. It is pointless. And by "the left" I presume you mean the likes of Albert Einstein and Leo Tolstoy, because they're on my side on this one. I'm pretty bored of talking about this, and I said in my first post that I didn't want to go on about it, so I'm just going to point you in the direction of this essay: http://xroads.virginia.edu/~hyper/goldman/patriotism.html. It's a good one.
