Black Caviar

  • Please bear with us on the new site integration and fixing any known bugs over the coming days. If you can not log in please try resetting your password and check your spam box. If you have tried these steps and are still struggling email [email protected] with your username/registered email address
  • Log in now to remove adverts - no adverts at all to registered members!
Status
Not open for further replies.
Her connections and other aussie trainers have been shouting were coming over to run on "mud fields against handicappers for peanuts", and now their wondermare has scraped home a head all out, they will maybe show more respect to the greatest racing in the world.
 
OddDog said:
I have to say I'm coming more and more to the conclusion that this forum has a liberal sprinkling of "niche elitests".

"A chser isn't a chaser unless he can win a gold cup"
"Frankel just beating the same horses over a mile is boring"
"Black Caviar didn't win by half a street so she's a dog"

With particular reference to the Diamond Jubilee Stakes, with what arrogance do we claim that 6 furlongs over an undulating Ascot straight on Good-soft is the ultimate test of a sprinter, and that if Black Caviar can't win 8 lengths hard held she's an overrated handicapper? On the one hand Frankel is "boring" because he only wins over 8 furlongs in his back yard against the same horses, and yet here we have an Australian mare who is 21/21 and her connections have the balls to fly her half way around the world to come to Royal Ascot and put that fine record on the line, she goes and wins and is immediately crabbed because she didn't do it with her head in her chest?

I don't know, maybe you are all world class professional athletes who have flown half way around the world, dealt with the dramatic change in conditions, dealt with the jet lag, dealt with the stress of travelling such huge distances. If you are, then fair play to you. If not, then give the mare a break and acknowledge a fantastic racehorse with connections who had the nerve to make for a great spectacle and a real highlight for this year's meeting.

Jeeeeeeeeeeeeeesus ****ing christ <doh>
Click to expand...

We don't claim any of that but feel free to continue to put words in other peoples mouths Oddy.

I've already made the point that she was supposed to be the best sprinter of all time and the equal of Frankel. The sample we have is small but given this was arguably her most important race and the result was unquestionably disappointing why on Earth wouldn't we question the validity of the claims from Australia that she's as good as if not better than Frankel. On this race she wasn't. We don't need Timeform to tell us she ran a stone below form, we all have eyes.

We all appreciate them making the effort to come over and it enhanced the Saturday immensely but that isn't what we're talking about in this thread. Also, to be fair they'll have had excellent treatment and a fantastic holiday out of it. They get first place prize money and had experiences very few ever get to enjoy like meeting the Queen post race so they've been more than adequately compensated for their efforts.
 
Bluesky......You are being very hard on her, ofcourse she's a wonder mare, she has won 22 races in a row, and has never lost.*

I am 100% convinced that the horse we seen today was not the horse that has taken Australia by storm. Horses can have off days particularly when they've been asked to travel round the world.*

How many *top class horses from over here have gone over to the Breeders Cup and under performed? Dayjur lost out there.*

I know ratings aren't gospel, but all the ratings experts over in Australia agree that she is 10 pounds superior to any sprinter they have ever sent over, and that includes Royal Ascot winners Choisir and Takeover Target. These people are not sentimental old fools either, and would only rate her that far clear if they felt she was.

Scenic Blast looked a beast when he won the Kings Stand a few years back, and she has slammed him 10 lengths on the bridle.*

Star Witness another from Australia who went down a neck in last years Kings Stand is regularly miles behind her, without Black Caviar even being asked a question.*

She is a wonder horse, and I still think she is the best sprinter I have ever seen. You realy should do some research on her Australian form and watch some of her races, before you start holding 1 below par effort against her. There is no way she could have possibly run up to anywhere near her best today :biggrin:*
 
Just a point to everyone - I remember Frankel being "ALL OUT" to beat Zoffany at ASCOT last season. Stop having a go at Black Caviar because she didn't win by half the track.
 
NassauBoard said:
If Frankel raced on the Sand at Southwell I think we could find something to beat him.

I am not going to post my full opinions about Black Caviar, but I would suggest that I stand half way between the two camps, I thought she wasn't as impressive as I had expected against a field that was weakened by her "Aura" and it really saddens me that we didn't get to see her up against Bated Breath over the 6 furlongs. I think the form of those in behind shows that it wasn't a performance that rings out as one of a 132 rated horse.

However we do have interesting circumstances, she was given a bad ride in the closing stages and she had travelled half the way around the world. Horses such as Takeover Target have shown that travel need not impede a horse at Royal Ascot, but that is not to say that it wasn't a reason for her show today, and her jockey gave her a ride that seemed to suggest that he expected her to gallop right through the line (instead of tiring) and she should have won by a bit further.

My main issue is that in the UK and Europe as a whole, we do not have a very classy sprinter to compare her to, and as such we may diminish her effort because she beat horses who have reasonably poor form in G1 company over the trip.
Click to expand...

Agree with that last para Nass.
 
rainbowview said:
Just a point to everyone - I remember Frankel being "ALL OUT" to beat Zoffany at ASCOT last season. Stop having a go at Black Caviar because she didn't win by half the track.
Click to expand...

yes because queally made an insane move 5f out to catch a pacemaker, if that was black caviar she would have been beaten 20 lengths after a move like that
 
Yeah ok whatever - what was the distance of the win ? he went quick in the guineas didn't he ;) nothing said then because nothing got close
 
Quelesprit said:
We don't claim any of that but feel free to continue to put words in other peoples mouths Oddy.

I've already made the point that she was supposed to be the best sprinter of all time and the equal of Frankel. The sample we have is small but given this was arguably her most important race and the result was unquestionably disappointing why on Earth wouldn't we question the validity of the claims from Australia that she's as good as if not better than Frankel. On this race she wasn't. We don't need Timeform to tell us she ran a stone below form, we all have eyes.

We all appreciate them making the effort to come over and it enhanced the Saturday immensely but that isn't what we're talking about in this thread. Also, to be fair they'll have had excellent treatment and a fantastic holiday out of it. They get first place prize money and had experiences very few ever get to enjoy like meeting the Queen post race so they've been more than adequately compensated for their efforts.
Click to expand...

Quel the comparisons with Frankel were, for me, nothing more than showboating to promote the spectacle. I think we would all acknowledge that 1) comparing the 2 is folly and 2) Frankel is one of the top 3 flat horses to ever grace the race track. We will never know how close she was to her bext today but, at the furlong pole, she looked like she would win on the bridle. She clearly tired close to the finish and the jockey easing up didn't help. If she'd been ridden out she would have won 1.5 lengths, maybe we would have said "a shade cosily".
 
Very interesting thread, would say most interesting since 606 days.....

Aussies love excuses whenever they lose or underperform. I honestly dont think they had any. They thought they had this race won before the off. The hype around her is a result of their 'confidence' so we are all entitied to criticise her performance. There isnt an excuse for me and she is just a good horse. No wonderhorse.

Frankle however is, he is much much better now that the Zoffany performance and TQ a much better jock.
 
rainbowview said:
Just a point to everyone - I remember Frankel being "ALL OUT" to beat Zoffany at ASCOT last season. Stop having a go at Black Caviar because she didn't win by half the track.
Click to expand...

The difference between Frankel that day and BC was how Frankel went away from his field by a good amount before tiring, I don't think Black Caviar showed the same sort of gear change.

She is a very good horse, but today she didn't show the form of a 132 rated sprinter in my opinion. Probably on ratings she ran 10lb+ below, do you not think?
 
I do think that yes Nass but people are being incredibly harsh on her. A lot of the people were going on about how good she was as well before the race.
 
rainbowview said:
I do think that yes Nass but people are being incredibly harsh on her. A lot of the people were going on about how good she was as well before the race.
Click to expand...

I think that is the problem, people were going on about her because of her record in Australia, rather like many did with Overdose. The difference is, she still won her race.
 
People were going on about it because the aussies were building it up as if she had wings- greatest racehorse ever, the pommes just havent recognised it.

Connections did nothing to play that down. I never heard anyone once say - 'i know shes 21-0 but to be honest most of those races have been a procession and might as well have been against shetland ponys'. Thats the fact though, a horse going off 1-33. That record doesnt mean alot for me. This was the big test, thats why they sent her. She failed badly. No change of speed at all. Nothing, just a nice big engine.
 
I agree RV. If she had won 6 on the trot in OZ rather than 22 and if Frankel hadn't graced racing yet, we'd have said actually, that was very impressive to win on the bridle despite a huge cock up.

The problem we got is that she looked so good on the eye in 20 odd Oz starts and that she was being compared with Frankel that she seems to have flattered to deceive today- but far from it!!




I'd LOVE her to have another race here and be proper acclimatised.
 
Disagree Toppy, most of those races were a complete joke. 1-33 come on. Shetland pony stuff.
I would have said she found very very little when asked (as evidenced by alot of her other performances). She would only have won 1/2 a length max. She was completely emptied (as confirmed by the jockey). Good engine, no turn or foot.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom
Back