I thought you were comparing the team from the first promotion full of kids and 2nd division in Germany. Again most expensive doesn’t mean best. Transfer value is an indicator of quality not the definition. I wasn’t downplaying his first season but I was the second season. Look Farke was a great manager, no denial from me there. Its just grating on me that some aren’t willing to give Smith a chance this season and despite results need to pick at any negatives. We’ve won 4 on the spin but the throw-ins are being criticised. The squad as a whole is definitely better now, there is far more strength in depth that much is obvious. Whether the starting 11 is better I am not so sure, I’d have an in form Lewis, Godfrey and Buendia over the likes of Gianoulis, Omobamidele/Hanley and Sinani but that’s open to debate. Happy to agree to disagree
I am concerned about a growing line from Smith advocates arguing that it may take more than one season, adding that we need to remember Farke's indifferent first season in the Championship. This is an attempt to make Smith unsackable because these advocates just know in their water that he is a star manager and so we'll have loads of jam tomorrow. It also ignores the fact that Smith had 70% of a PL season to bed himself in. Farke didn't. Smith advocates are attempting to make the first game this season into ground zero and hoping we all forget last season ever happened, with its total lack of any development from Smith Game 1 to Smith Game 27. But what if we don't even make the play-offs? Do we still keep Smith, even though almost any manager in this league would get us into the play-offs with the squad that we have compared to other teams? Ah, but he's building, they will argue. Those other managers would be short-term gain for long-term loss. Trust me, he's building something; he needs time. But how do we know he's building something if the results are disappointing? Brentford! Look at how he built at Brentford! 9th in his first season, 9th in his third. I think flat-lining is a more suitable word. And we mustn't forget he hasn't got his own players, they will add, conveniently overlooking that we are operating a DoF system. If we don't make the play-offs, he should be out of here, feet not touching the ground. The more difficult decision would come if we make the play-offs but don't go up (which is my current prediction now that I have seen how mediocre most of this division has become). Smith will have achieved the absolute minimum that can be reasonably demanded of him. What then? Stick or twist? EDIT: I know I'm getting ahead of myself here, but people who say it may take more than one season are doing the same.
It's ridiculous to compare Farke's first season in the Championship with Smith's. The difference between the 2 starting points is so far apart to make any comparison irrelevant. Personally I don't think we should have sacked Farke and I'd be more than happy if he was still our manager, however once he was sacked I was comfortable with the Smith's appointment. I never really thought Smith would keep us up, so unless he did something(s) really stupid, I was of the view the remainder of the PL season was preparation for this season and that he should be judged on this season. It would be an illogical decision to sack him at this point. For me anything less than a play off position and he definitely walks. If we hit the play offs, but don't get promoted then for me it would depend on the circumstances as to whether he stays or goes, but he should be judged on what he's done rather than on a comparison with Farke. If we get promoted then of course he stays, I get the impression with Smith that he is probably a better PL manager than Championship one. Time will tell.
I'm still very much in the give him 10 games camp and reassess. 4 wins 1 draw 2 losses So far we have gone from bottom to 2nd let's see if momentum in the next 3 games improves performances. The last 2 Championship seasons we lost 7 and 6 games over the entire campaign so that needs to be matched . We are undefeated at home so far and that needs to keep going and I'm expecting some thrashings where we are 2 or 3 goals up at half time and Smith can experiment with subs and rest key players as we play weekends and midweek most of the season . The bar has been.set very high at Championship level as the most promoted side ever , and this has to be our strongest squad in my memory. So Smith for me is expected to get us up and stamp out his own brand of play on this group of players . 6th place would be an absolute minimum but he took Villa up through the play offs so has experience, but in reality less than 2nd would feel like failure . Of course you can't account for long term injuries in the same position which could be a factor like losing 3 left backs in the first month but even our academy kids should be able to do a decent job at this level. The last 2 wins I felt were very lucky smash and grabs which is great but I'm still not convinced results will keep going our way relying on the crossbar at Sunderland and late late goals at Birmingham. At the other end we seem to have nailed on penalties waved away most games almost as if refs don't want to make it too easy for us . Pretty much all of the goals conceded have been individual mistakes and freak deflections and our defending for the most part has been pretty solid. At Premier league level nearly all those misplaced back passes and Krul dribbling in his own box got punished which flatters our performances. I'm expecting a win against Coventry tomorrow
Everything you say is fair Dunc, can’t disagree. I was just thinking on the missing players, we are currently missing our first 3 options at LB in Gianoulis, McCallum and Sorensen. But what I hadn’t thought about is that We are also missing our first 3 options at DM in Hayden, Sorensen and Gibbs. Ok Sorensen covers both positions but that is 5 defensive minded players missing that may have improved us defensively.
Actually, in my case (and I'm the only one on here to have expressed this view), it's nothing to do with Smith. It's my appraisal of how long it will take to build a squad capable of surviving in the EPL. The constraints on this are (a) the lack of sufficient quality in the current squad; (b) the financial constraints under which Webber and the manager (whoever he is) have to operate. I do have confidence that Dean Smith knows what is needed, but he isn't in control of the rate at which those needs can be fulfilled. If people disagree with me about the timescale, they need to tell us (a) who they think in the current squad is good enough to feature regularly in a team with a decent chance of surviving next season in the EPL, (b) where we need upgrades, and (c) where the money is coming from to bring in the better quality players in the next two transfer windows.
No. See my earlier post #92: "What we should be judging progress on is a developing style of play fit for EPL purpose, and window by window metamorphosis of the squad into a group capable of effectively realising it. As I've said before, I see no point in promotion until that is achieved, and I think it may take two seasons."
A CV with relegation from the Premier league. A first season in the Championship with all of our best players plus quality expensive additions would be his best chance of promotion . Failure to get promoted would mean we would lose most of our top talent . It's bizzare that you afford Smith so much room for failure in the hope he will bring success sometime in the future . It's a results business and the fans demand progress . Almost the exact stance you took with Farke who you clearly don't rate despite his incredible success he brought.
So failure to get promoted but losing in a style of play that you deem worthy of success in the Premier is progress ? If that mythical EPL style isn't effective enough to gain promotion from a lesser league then maybe it's not going to work hypothetically in the EPL. Smith isn't starting with a squad thst has had all it's best players sold looking to rebuild on a tight budget . He failed to keep Norwich up and is using the players that Webber brings in , he won't have that luxury next season if he FAILS to gain promotion first time
What if, and it's just a thought, the style of play needed to get out of the Championship, isn't compatible with the style of play need to keep a promoted team in the PL.
The championship especially with the two seasons in one is a very odd concept. In Farke's first promotion once the ball got rolling it just went on and on with crazy results (not sure my heart has been the same since). Second time, a slow start, but a much better team on paper, akin to the side we have now. Is it a failure if Smith scrapes promotion or goes into the playolffs, well no. Each season is different, injuries occur, lady luck might be having a puff out the back. Yes there are people who miss Farke, it's a bit like people moaning about the EU referendum in 2022. Rightly or wrongly we are in the situation we are, make the best of it At the end of the day Smith had a fairly hopeless scenario when he came in last season. This year we got off to our normal slow start (answers on a post card as to how we sort that) and now we are slowly winning games. Beginning half of Farke's second promotion we were so so fortunate with a lot of the results. So not losing 6 or 7 games over the season who gives a monkeys, obviously I would like promotion this season, but if it takes two seasons to bed in a team capable of survival so be it, nothing is to be taken for granted.
It's a hard sell to ask for more transfer windows to strengthen the team as the parachute payments run out and our players want to play at a higher level. It's an even harder sell to celebrate finishing in 12th place and try to convince the plebs in the stands that this style would have kept them up in a much harder league. If anything we have ditched the beautiful tippy tappy Farkeball for a more direct aerial approach. The winner the other day came from Krul hurtling out and punting the ball straight up into the air . We are putting more 50 50 hoofs up into midfield than in previous seasons which suits Sargent's game
Theoretically possible, but there are plenty of examples of teams who were promoted and survived without major alterations to their style of play -- Swansea, Saints, WBA, Burnley, to name just four familiar ones.
Yet strangely despite our yoyo status we have featured in the EPL more often than all of them apart from Saints who everyone was praising for their incredible academy project which we attempted to emulate with great success
Webber said that last year the finances were spread over too many players and I hated the fact we sold Buendia, however understand it from an honour perspective. However each year they try to strengthen more the weakest part of the team, this year central midfield was identified and targetted (something both Robbie and I were discussing last year). Do we need to try and play another way, yes, because for all the wonderful Championship moments Farkeball was an abject failure in the Premier League. We need to try something different, Smith was just onto something with Idah and Pukki up front before Idah's injury. Sargent couldn't hit a barn door last year so with a new lease of life we can play to his strengths which are different from Pukki's. All in all, I feel we need to wait until January or so before passing judgement, far too early in the season.
It's an interesting idea which may well be at least partly true. When I was younger, if a team won the second tier easily, it was very likely that they would survive in the top tier. Scraping up meant probable instant relegation. That seems to no longer apply. The ability to wear down the Cardiffs and Birminghams of this world through possession and greater skill seems almost the opposite to what is needed when you go up and need to spend a lot of the time on the back foot. For us, though, do we have a realistic choice in the matter? We can't do a Forest and buy an entire new squad (which I personally hope comes back and bites them hard in the bum). We have to go largely with the team that gets us up. Some tweaks, of course, but last season suggests that too much churn is a bad thing unless you have the money to buy at Morrisons rather than go to Asda just before they close to pick up the cheapies.
