Off Topic Bill Nicholson Arms

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humanbeingincroydon said:
The fact nobody made excuses for it is the point, as is the fact people still bring up Francis Lee and Rodney Marsh every time a football pundit pretends that diving didn't exist in England until overseas players became more common

As for celebrating after cheating, the fact we've forgotten the Uruguay team chairing off Luis Suarez after his handball against Ghana ultimately kept them in the 2010 World Cup says a lot - namely, screw Ghana, this bloke cheated against England
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This discussion brings to mind 3 goals.
1. Henry against Ireland. ( Compare hand of god goal )
2. Son against Chelsea ( Maradona's second against England )
3. Son against Burnley ( as above )

Goals 2 and 3 ,like Maradona's, would never have happened had they been brought down early on in their run and we would have been deprived of beautiful moments.
 
Blue and White said:
This discussion brings to mind 3 goals.
1. Henry against Ireland. ( Compare hand of god goal )
2. Son against Chelsea ( Maradona's second against England )
3. Son against Burnley ( as above )

Goals 2 and 3 ,like Maradona's, would never have happened had they been brought down early on in their run and we would have been deprived of beautiful moments.
Click to expand...
Also, more importantly, goals 2 and 3 wouldn't have had some embittered bloke who was eight inches taller than the player who scored pissing their pants about it for 34 years...
 
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Spurf said:
For me Maradona is forever associated with the 'hand of god ' incident. It's not because he cheated, many players do that and had done that in football, it was because of where he did it and who he was. He was the best player in the world at that time, his skills were there for everyone to see. He was literally a breathtaking player. His ability to control the ball, keep it and pass players with it is still unprecedented. Other players have displayed similar skills, at times, and produced special moments, with Maradona it was routine it's what he did all the time. The 1990 World Cup final was contested by the same two teams as the 1986 final. West Germany v Argentina. The result was reversed in the 1990 final in Rome with West Germany winning. What was surprising to me was that Argentina were in the final at all, because they were quite ordinary IMO, apart that is from one man, the amazing Maradona. That's how good he was!

So in that context for this player to cheat blatantly and then celebrate afterwards as some kind of devine retribution that justified it, was beyond it for me. If the best player in the world can cheat and in effect get away with it and then celebrate it, the knock on effect was to change football forever. Changing the attitude to deliberate foul play to 'professional'. Now it's quite normal for pundits to say, he should have brought him down and taken one for the team. Players 'win' free kicks and penalties. Spoils the game IMO and it all stems from the 'Hand of God' Such a shame for me personally that what should be a good memory of an amazing footballer is so tarnished by one moment in time.
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Exactly my thoughts. Plus I hate being told when I need to mourn someone famous. Like Lady Di, Michael Jackson, Prince etc. If someone passes that I personally liked or appreciated then it's different, but it will be my choice. Even worse are the people that seem to get more upset about losing a celebrity they don't know than someone in their own family. I like the Beatles and if John Lennon is killed I am suitably upset. If someone dies that I thought about as Spurf posted, then I'm not going to be told to mourn.
 
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Scrolled through my camera roll and found this, he was a guest at one of our games at Wembley. Was pretty surreal, could tell the moment he was announced by the aura and atmosphere that he was one of the greatest to have ever played the game, never really seen a non-Spurs player (testimonial aside!) or non-Spurs fan get such a reception as he did. Wish I were around to have seen him play live, seen enough clips to know how brilliant he was but nothing beats seeing a player in the flesh, been very fortunate already to have seen some greats but he's someone I unfortunately never got the privilege of watching.
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Spurlock said:
Gazza on a Zoom chat with Shilton live on Good Morning Britain.

“I know a lot of people go on about the Hand of God - it made Peter Shilton, anyway. Shilts, it made you, that goal.

<laugh>
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Shiltons face was a picture ... Gazza and the presenters all laughing and Shilton sat there deadpan <laugh>
 
Spurf said:
For me Maradona is forever associated with the 'hand of god ' incident. It's not because he cheated, many players do that and had done that in football, it was because of where he did it and who he was. He was the best player in the world at that time, his skills were there for everyone to see. He was literally a breathtaking player. His ability to control the ball, keep it and pass players with it is still unprecedented. Other players have displayed similar skills, at times, and produced special moments, with Maradona it was routine it's what he did all the time. The 1990 World Cup final was contested by the same two teams as the 1986 final. West Germany v Argentina. The result was reversed in the 1990 final in Rome with West Germany winning. What was surprising to me was that Argentina were in the final at all, because they were quite ordinary IMO, apart that is from one man, the amazing Maradona. That's how good he was!

So in that context for this player to cheat blatantly and then celebrate afterwards as some kind of devine retribution that justified it, was beyond it for me. If the best player in the world can cheat and in effect get away with it and then celebrate it, the knock on effect was to change football forever. Changing the attitude to deliberate foul play to 'professional'. Now it's quite normal for pundits to say, he should have brought him down and taken one for the team. Players 'win' free kicks and penalties. Spoils the game IMO and it all stems from the 'Hand of God' Such a shame for me personally that what should be a good memory of an amazing footballer is so tarnished by one moment in time.
Click to expand...

humanbeingincroydon said:
Francis Lee and Rodney Marsh were diving to win penalties in the 70s, and in Lee's case it was enabled by fans and pundits joking about how he'd always win a penalty when The Not Yet Sheikh Mansour Team needed one, so highlighting Maradona as Patient Zero for cheating becoming standard in football doesn't really stack up as not only had the aforementioned players got a decade on him, so had the excuses
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Imho the Falklands War is the reason that Maradona called it the "hand of God" goal and why the media never let it go.
If Maradona had done the same thing against France he wouldn't have called it the "hand of God" and it wouldn't have hardly been mentioned over the years.

I remember watching it as a 19 yr old and my honest reaction was how the **** did he get away with it?

I also remember him being kicked stupid in the match, which to me is as much a part of cheating as him punching the ball in the net. That form of cheating (kicking the **** outta good players) was epidemic between the 1960s and 1990s.
I recent saw Graham Souness talking about the Spurs v Liverpool 1982 League Cup Final and they showed a horrific takle he made on Tony Galvin, effectively kicking him out of the game after 5 or so minutes and what would be a straight red today warrented nothing back then.

That was the norm back then

The concept of "professional " cheating comes from thelate 1970s when players regularly tripped players from behind to prevent them scoring. This went on week in week out but it was only properly dealt with after it happened in the 1980 FA Cup final in front of millions on the only English club match live tv.
Willie young tripped Paul Allen from behind when he'd never catch him to stop him scoring. There was outrage that such blatant cheating was only punishable with a yellow card so the FA changed the rules to make "professional fouls" a straight red card.

So 6 years before the "hand of God" goal we were already struggling with "professional fouls".
 
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remembercolinlee said:
Imho the Falklands War is the reason that Maradona called it the "hand of God" goal and why the media never let it go.
If Maradona had done the same thing against France he wouldn't have called it the "hand of God" and it wouldn't have hardly been mentioned over the years.

I remember watching it as a 19 yr old and my honest reaction was how the **** did he get away with it?

I also remember him being kicked stupid in the match, which to me is as much a part of cheating as him punching the ball in the net. That form of cheating (kicking the **** outta good players) was epidemic between the 1960s and 1990s.
I recent saw Graham Souness talking about the Spurs v Liverpool 1982 League Cup Final and they showed a horrific takle he made on Tony Galvin, effectively kicking him out of the game after 5 or so minutes and what would be a straight red today warrented nothing back then.

That was the norm back then

The concept of "professional " cheating comes from thelate 1970s when players regularly tripped players from behind to prevent them scoring. This went on week in week out but it was only properly dealt with after it happened in the 1980 FA Cup final in front of millions on the only English club match live tv.
Willie young tripped Paul Allen from behind when he'd never catch him to stop him scoring. There was outrage that such blatant cheating was only punishable with a yellow card so the FA changed the rules to make "professional fouls" a straight red card.

So 6 years before the "hand of God" goal we were already struggling with "professional fouls".
Click to expand...
I agree with the Falklands war connection and that was Maradona's intention. That was god paying back the English for the Falklands. Professional fouls go back before the 70's for example it's the reason Alf Ramsey described Argentina as animals in the 1966 world cup. The way Spurs were kicked out of the 61/62 European Cup (when it was only contested by champions) by Benfica. Read Jimmy Greaves account. The difference I am talking about is that it used to be frowned upon, it's not now. It's not the behavior that's changed it's the perception of the behavior. It's been turned into mainstream and the Hand of God had a big role to play in that process.
 
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