Bigi and Marveaux

The only issue I have with Marv is whether or not he will be able to do it against teams that are more agressive and press the ball more. Against Man Utd and Arsenal he had a lot of freedom freedom that some teams will not give him, the likes of Everton, Stoke, Norwich etc

 

Hopefully find out Wednesday.

 

To be fair since the Wigan match he has played well whenever I've seen him.

 

I thionk the criticism of Pardew is unfair. It was a case of fresh legs instead of tired, thoupossibl better, legs.

Also, Shola is exactly the player to bring on if you wan nothing to happen for the las t20 minutes of a game. Old shamblefoot is the best we have at playing target man, holding it up, getting knocked over and generally making a game die of boredom

 

To be fair Freddd, I thought he made the substitution to go for the game more, it was just unfortunate that Giroud scored straight afterwards to make it 5-3 and then after that we just collapsed.

 

They were the obvious and correct subs for me with Everton in mind. That is a game we can have a go at. They've had a days less rest, have their own injury problems, and may find themselves weary last 20mins after a big effort against Chelsea. As a manager you have to look at the bigger picture. Sometimes I feel the fans are very short sighted and quick to jump on his back. He has gambled on us getting a point or more out of Everton. If we do he will be fully vindicated, if he doesn't, is it that big a shock at present?

Shola too, never been his biggest fan but finally found a suitable role in the squad as a sub who holds it and takes the sting out of the game. He left them longer than I would have but the last 20mins was inevitable after their winter break so he had to protect a few. Bigi's legs stopped on 70mins in both last two matches, would people prefer he pushes him further until he pulls up? He's a young lad. Marveaux has played little football, was tired, has a history of problems and is needed while in a rich vein of form.

Lets not forget either the club have all the data at their disposal which tells them exactly where their bodies are physically at present.

 

I have to say I completely disagree. It's harsh calling anybody short-sighted, and then effectively saying "bollocks to the Everton game, we aren't going to win anyway", because he's made the subs at 4-3, a point on the cards. That is a sure fact, and what isn't a fact is whether, with the same amount of time gone on Wednesday, we'll be in a position were we can get a point. The subs represent a capitulation, so cannot in any circumstances be described as good! We could have brought on the spare goalie instead and he'd have been as much use.

Bigi could just as easily have pulled up walking off the pitch, if we're going to induldge hypothetical hindsight as a yardstick of right and wrong. If we don't beat Everton, quite frankly Pardew will look an even bigger berk than he currently looks. They get the credit when a sub comes on and scores a winner, they can't be absolved of destroying a team.

 

A point at 4-3 when we were falling to pieces was far from on the cards, let alone a sure fact. Everton are flying but I fully understand a manager keeping back clearly exhausted players to have a go at a home game. I stand by what I said I think people are very short sighted on subs. I'm not only talking about the Everton game, its also about the information they have available too which we are not party too.

Sorry but one thing that is a sure fact is that when you are physically exhausted you are more susceptible to strains and pulls. Marveaux looked tired and Bigi was out on his feet for the 2nd game in a row having put an enormous amount of effort in. I prefer a manager who looks after players, it is short sighted to increase the risk of picking up injuries for a highly unlikely point.

The reality is we'd already began falling to pieces at around the 70min mark. I would have had them off then but he waited until the 82min mark. We were ragged as **** from 70mins onwards as I knew we would would be against a fresh side. We were never getting anything from that game, you don't blow the Everton game for it.

 

Firstly, I said the chance of a point was a sure fact, as in we'd have to score just one and not concede to get a point. We don't know if this will be the case at the same point in the Everton match

An improper warm-down can be as bad for causing injuries as anything.

You can't say we were never going to get anything, because we'll never know. What we do know is that the side we had out scored 3 goals, kept possession very well and were more effective in stopping Arsenal scoring than the side that contained "fresh" subs. To me, Pardew didn't take off those players (well Bigi anyway) to rest them, he took them off to try for a point and miscalculated big time, leaving big gaps and worse still, putting on players who did a much worse job than those who were on previously (and supposedly tired)...

Why take off Bigi when Anita is supposed to be back, and Willo surely won't be suspended (hence Perch can play CM)? I can't see it as anything other than tactical. Was he tired? Yes, but more so than anyone else? I just don't buy that.

Marv potentially the case is that he'll start for Everton, but it still smells utterly rank. Pardew so obviously refuses to give the lad a game, yet all of a sudden he's a must starter for a home game who needs to be protected?!?!

With us having a whole DAY more than Everton to prepare, I find it incredible you can make a case for protection when he's taken them off with a few minutes to go... It really doesn't look like protection at all.

 

The lad has not deserved much game time until recently as he has been fairly poor since joining. He is now in form and is being used. Pards kept too much faith with Jonas but Marveaux has been fairly useless when played wide. He looks useful with two defensive minded players behind him centrally but lets not pretend he has been pulling up many more trees than Jonas.

We'll just have to agree to disagree because I find the suggestion that you just run Bigi into the ground when he is clearly exhausted because we have players available for the next game just completely unacceptable and not befitting of someone managing at this level. Stevie Wonder could see he'd ran his course by the 70min mark in both games and I massively disagree here as Bigi was blatantly more tired than the others (probably because he covered more ground in either game). As a manager he has no guarantees that Anita will be fit so that is a mute point.

As I say I actually felt Pards left it too long to make the subs. I understand why as we were still there swinging, but just like a boxer one punch from a KO. I felt he was better off getting them off but such was the clownery at the back (some brought on by tiredness) there was never a point you could say "right shut up shop" as goals were coming within 5mins of scoring!

As for the WHOLE day more, surely the point is you maximise it? Improper warm downs are no where near as bad as exhaustion for injuries and not really an issue at this level (everything is done properly now), so again a mute point. I can and will say we were never getting anything from that game, we were shattered.

We are polar opposite here of course so we're both going to find the others suggestions a bit silly

 

He's hardly been used prior to this spell, so if we're talking about short-sighted, how about we start with you and the manager judging him off about 2 games? Having watched the pre-season friendlies, especially having been present at lovely Hartlepool , I can tell you (and did, look up the threads) that Marveaux was the best player by a mile. DT and I were incredibly surprised, as were a few of the other supporters we talked to, that Marv wasn't even in the squad for the first game of the season. That to me says he's either a massive dick, can only turn it on versus **** teams (which his current spell has thoroughly disproved) or he wasn't bothering in training/Pardew thinks not playing him, as per Ben Arfa, will change his attitude to work ethic (or show him who's boss). He definitely isn't a poor football player. Jonas hasn't been more terrible than previous years, his lack of creativity is just suddenly a problem to everyone who's looking for a scapegoat. He's the same old Jonas, perhaps a smidgen less effective, but I could guarantee his stats would be comparable with any other season we've had him. Pardew has made a conscious choice not to start the more attacking player.

As for trees, he can pull up what he likes so long as he continues assisting and scoring at a rate Jonas can only dream of. 2 more goals and he'll have scored as many as Jonas in the entirety of his time here surely?

I think our difference of opinion is neatly illustrated by my appraisal of the substitution as a comment of the manager:

4-3 down, few minutes left, you take off the two most effective players in midfield. Two situations. 1. Pardew is going for the game, bringing on players he thinks will positively affect the match. In the end it's a tactical blunder and backfires horribly 2. He's taking off two players because he thinks we need them for Everton, which after all is more important than trying to get anything at Arsenal. **** the fans who've travelled the length and breadth of the country for the game on a traditionally difficult day for transport. We can't possibly get anything, and I know that at 4-3, so why bother? Just through on a couple of people in there place and hope we don't get destroyed.

Honestly, if you're right Pouch, I seriously resent Pardew. In the first case, he's just poor at evaluating the game and picking personnel to suit... In the second case he's an arsehole who shouldn't be a football manager. If you don't try for a point from 4-3, or even lose faith in a point, you should be fired more savagely than the one ring.

Please explain how 10 minutes the day before the whole day off, is going to maximise it? If I work out furiously for ten minutes right now, do you think I'll be ****ed in two days time? Perhaps making the analogy more appropriate, if I trained for 1hr and 20 minutes today, do genuinely believe it would make any difference to me two days on to if I had trained for 1 hr 30 minutes instead? Like I say, there's very little room for saying any protection was taking place in my opinion. Pardew is just **** at substitutes.

DT is in the process of applying for a physio degree, so if we postpone this debate a couple of years, I'm sure she'll let us know that I was right

 

At least you two guys are keeping the board awake.

 

Your comment is predicated on the assumption that things would have been better if the existing playersn had stayed on. Unless they would have done better, then nothing "backfired". I really can't see any basis upon which gthat can be assumed.

If what you mean is that, but for bringing on players in an attempt to get a point, we would have lost by only one or two goals rather than 4, then I would rather risk getting hammered in an attempt to gain a point than settle for a respectable loss.

 

Damn you AB, you broke the string of steadily longer and longer comments which no one could be bothered reading...

 

The assumption that had two of our better players stayed on, we'd have had more chance of not getting humped? If I can't question his substitutions in this instance, why criticize him for anything? It would be hypocritical of you to pull me up on it unless you whole-heartedly believed the manager is only ever correct. I'm simply questioning the wisdom of taking two of the better players off, because from that point on we capitulated. I don't see it as a coincidence.

As per your last sentence, you've clearly misunderstood something/where I wanted to try for the point, WP is the one saying trying for a point was inconsequential. I advocate not bringing off the two best midfielders when you're trying to win a point or three, don't see where you've veered off...

 

I read everything.

 

Jonas has been a whole lot worse this season, to suggest otherwise is just silly. He can barely control a ball (usually first class). His mobility is gone (probably his main asset previously), even his defence work, which was stellar has been poor. You can not be serious with that remark? Never been creative but the level of his game has dropped a huge amount. Pardew has made a conscious decision to start one of our best players of last season. Correct decision. The mistake he has made is persisting when his level had clearly dropped. Still Marveaux has done jack **** when wide so would he have done any better?

I take players as I find them and Marveaux has looked a weak injury prone underperforming player since arriving. When you arrive at new team you have to force your way in, he simply hasn't done enough. He could have been on the bench but we're not party as to why not, with rumours circulating about his and Abeid's desire to fight for a place. I can't comment if that us true but I'm more than happy to back the managers judgement who so far has shown plenty of good examples of instilling the correct mentality within the squad. The Ben Arfa one you have already pointed out.

I can throw back the short sighted remark too. Marveaux joined in June 2011 and the sum total of your love for him is based on a few pre season games, and a couple of decent games of late (lets not forget his recent **** up against Man U which cost us). Nobody doubts his skills, or ability to create. Its his fitness and desire that has been quite rightly in question. He has managed 28 appearances since his arrival, and looked distinctly average overall.

Bigi was no longer effective in that or the Man U game, he was treading water badly. We didn't have the options to bring on the necessary types, given Bigi was our replacement choice and the other was playing centre half. He took off players for a mixture of reasons, not just the simplistic view of one of two situations. That is real management. Fitness levels pre match, games ahead, risk of injury, drop in performance level during the game, the list is a long one. I am not suggesting anywhere that he was sacrificing a game. You've misread that completely. I'm suggesting as a responsible manager he does have to consider the next game, particularly in our winter periods.

With all due respect, I don't need a physio degree to know you are more at risk of injury when you are exhausted. I've played enough football to know this and its pretty much common sense. Hence I believe Bigi should have been gone after 70mins when he gassed out. I've been there when you've played a murderous couple of games and you try to keep going. The difference is in professional football someone looks after you. Your analogies about working out are just not relevant in terms of analysing fitness/injuries because they have nothing to do with understanding professional sport and the demands over a long period of time. We'll have to hugely disagree because tired players mean increased risk of injury.

 

40 minutes to go guys, time to shake hands and make up.

 

Always putting my kneb in it.

 

We never fall out AB, he wants my ass