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Best Fillies/Mares of All Time on the Flat

Discussion in 'Horse Racing' started by mallafets123, Nov 4, 2018.

  1. Bustino74

    Bustino74 Thouroughbred Breed Enthusiast

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    Wasn't the expression after Pretty Polly's first win 'Pretty Polly first, the rest nowhere'. And apparently she wasn't fancied that day, they were just giving her a run.
     
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  2. Tamerlo

    Tamerlo Well-Known Member

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    Good morning, Bustino. I trust you are keeping well. Are you still living in Hong Kong, isn’t it? What’s it like over there nowadays? Kind regards
     
    #42
  3. Bustino74

    Bustino74 Thouroughbred Breed Enthusiast

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    Sorry for the late reply Tam, have not been on here for a few days. Retired October 2016 and been home even longer. If I'm breezing through Nuneaton way I'll look you up.
     
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  4. Grendel

    Grendel Well-Known Member

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    Enable is nowhere near it in my opinion. Those were two powerful weak Arc's she won and I speak as someone who recommended others to go in conkers deep at 5/1 for this year's Arc before her comeback run. She won this year despite being below last year's form and it's not hard to pick holes in the form of this year's Arc line up.

    If we are talking greats, we have to also include versatility and Enable is pretty much a 12F filly. In her races last year, she was characterised by putting in her best work late in the races, always seeing it out really strongly. I felt the atrocious conditions in the Epsom Oaks helped her outstay the very tired Rhododendron on the day. No doubt she's tough but there is no form at a mile to put her in the bracket of some of the other fillies mentioned in the thread.

    I felt Minding was a great filly, she really came to the fore in the Fillies Mile aged two and having missed the fancy prices for the Guineas by going with stablemate Alice Springs early doors, I decided she was worth doing for the Guineas/Oaks double at 8/1. Other than Ryan almost getting her beat at Epsom with one of the worst rides he has ever given a horse, there was little doubt she was a class act and having watched how strongly she stayed the mile at 2YO I was confident she would get 12F at Epsom.

    Enable is a different sort to Minding, pretty much a thorough stayer without a powerful turn of speed. She has also inhabited an era shorn of strong opposition. The French scene is as poor as I can recall in many a year and last years Arc has seen only four horses win since. Those horses are Idaho. who won a Group 3, Plumatic, who won a Group 3, Capri, who won a Group 3 and Order Of St George, who won a Group 2 at odds-on. Runner up last year, Cloth Of Stars, was runner up again this season and he has not won in seven attempts since last year's Arc.

    I think it is paramount to consider how strong the opposition was in any given year(s) when thinking about the great horses of our time. For me, Enable is nowhere near an all time great and if it were possible to transport her back in time to face other's at their peak, I would confidently bet against her.

    A filly largely forgotten when it comes to these comparisons is Jean-Claude Rouget's La Cressoniere. The Le Havre filly was one I noticed at 2YO and tried to get prices for about the French Classics the following year. Odds never surfaced for ages but I got 14/1 for the French Guineas and 15/2 for the Prix Diane in the Spring. She was a rare filly in terms of will to win in a race, she always found plenty and would hit line ears pricked. She won the French Guineas and the Prix Diane, before easily landing the Arc trial the Prix Nonette. Held up that day, she quickened well and was strong at the finish, setting herself up nicely for a tilt at the Arc. Sadly my ante-post voucher was not to be landed, as she had suffered a back injury that ended her career.

    Unbeaten in her racing days, the jockey was confident that he was going to be on the Arc winner in October and he also revealed that the filly was easily better than stable companion Almanzor, who won the French Derby and both the Irish and Ascot Champion Stakes that season.

    I don't think we got the chance to see how good La Cressonniere and it was perhaps telling that jockey Cristian said after she was retired that it was not the two Classic wins on her that were his favourite memory of her but instead it was the Nonette win, where he felt she had been "Phenomenal" and he added that she had a terrific racing mind, focussed fully before, during and after every race. An underrated and forgotten filly who was 8/8 in her career and would have given several of the "greats" plenty to think about.
     
    #44
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  5. Tamerlo

    Tamerlo Well-Known Member

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    You'd be most welcome. Kind regards, John
     
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  6. Bustino74

    Bustino74 Thouroughbred Breed Enthusiast

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    Well put. Most people tend to forget (or not consider) great horses from long ago. It's just as easy to forget those from the last few seasons. I can't believe I didn't mention Minding. Not only a good stayer but a very adaptable filly with loads of speed.
     
    #46
  7. Grendel

    Grendel Well-Known Member

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    I was proud of Minding in The Oaks, I really felt she saved Ryan Moore from one of the biggest cock-ups in the History of the sport. Sitting on the best filly and with bags of toe in the company she was in, it was surely simply a question of whether she stayed or not. I reckon Ryan must have drifted off dreaming about two-legged fillies and when he woke up he realised he had left Minding in an almost impossible position but she had the class to make up the ground and sweep to victory.

    When comparing horses from another season I like to ask myself if other horses could have overcome certain scenarios in races and with all due respect to Enable, I could not see her having recovered to score from the position Minding was in that day. Still kicking myself that I opted for Alice Springs for the 1000 Guineas when Minding was sitting at the same 33/1 odds. <doh>
     
    #47
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  8. Tamerlo

    Tamerlo Well-Known Member

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    Bustino, yes, it's so easy to forget horses from long ago.
    I suppose I hadn't given any thought to other fillies from the sixties when I mentioned Dahlia, but there was a filly who ranks at the very top of the tree.
    She was both champion two year old and champion three year old and her trainer, Paddy Prendergast, claimed he galloped her as her three year old with two stones more on her back than his top 4 year old sprinter (whose name escapes me)- and she thrashed him over six furlongs.
    She then won the Oaks by ten lengths in a hack canter and was red hot favourite for both the King George and Arc De Triomphe. Sadly she injured herself and Prendergast had to run his second string- the dual Classic winner and late developer, Ragusa, who hacked up at Ascot in the King George.
    She did run once more in the Vermeille - as preparatory race for the Arc- but she went lame in the race; finished third; and never ran again.
    I don't think I ever saw a filly win the Oaks as easily as she, Noblesse, did.
     
    #48
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  9. Janabelle13

    Janabelle13 Well-Known Member

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    Meld - only defeated once (her first start) but won 1000 Guineas, Oaks, Coronation Stakes and St Leger. Then produced a Derby winner
     
    #49
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  10. Ron

    Ron Well-Known Member
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    Oh dear. Can't believe I forgot that one. Reminded me of another filly, not as good as Noblesse but good nevertheless. Meld, won the 1000Gns, Oaks , Coronation Stakes and St Leger. I don't think she ran again. I don't think she produced much as a broodmare but got one good one in Charlottown who won the Derby
     
    #50
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2018

  11. Ron

    Ron Well-Known Member
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    How strange is that. I just got home and discovered that a post I did yesterday hadn't been sent, So I posted it and noticed you had come up with the same one.

    Yes she had one race previous to the 1000Gns and she was 4th. I remember exactly the spot in my old home where I was looking at the race card for the 1000Gns. Stuck in my memory that one which is why I can't believe I didn't mention her
     
    #51
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  12. Grendel

    Grendel Well-Known Member

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    Meld was well before my time but I noticed a top 50 fillies and mares of all time list and Meld didn't make the 50.

    Mind you, there were some strange picks who did make it:-

    https://www.pauljoneshorseracing.com/my-top-50-fillies-mares

    I'm not the author of the above incidentally, just quoting for interest's sake.
     
    #52
  13. CaptainPops

    CaptainPops Well-Known Member

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    It should not escape your notice that Dawn Run is number one...If you go back to page 2 of this post it was the horse I put forward..:emoticon-0148-yes:. All this nominating of flat horses is boring...thank goodness the flat is done save for the all weather bollox!
     
    #53
  14. Janabelle13

    Janabelle13 Well-Known Member

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    And some that should have made that top 50 list but did not ...
     
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  15. Ron

    Ron Well-Known Member
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    Sorry Pops but Dawn Run is not a flat racer so doesn't belong under this heading. Would you like to start a thread for Best Fillies/Mares of All Time over the Jumps (or would you like me to set one up?).

    Incidentally it isn't intended to be a thread to determine the best, merely to recognise them. Trying to rank them would just cause unnecessary quibbling
     
    #55
  16. Grendel

    Grendel Well-Known Member

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    The list for this thread asks specifically for Flat Fillies and Mares.

    Any list is going to contain horses who mean something personally to the selector but not so much to others who may read the list.

    For me, I feel picking 50 selections is too much. There are not that many TRUE greats in my opinion. I prefer the notion of GREAT horses belonging in a rarified category more limited in number. Too many in the same bracket dilutes the meaning of greatness. There are good horses, very good horses but the greats should have a little more privacy in the Hall Of Fame.

    Every year there will be writers in the Racing Media giving it large about the latest Classic winner, while the more pragmatic observers will sigh in the realisation that we have just watched a mediocre renewal of the Classic in question.
     
    #56
  17. Ron

    Ron Well-Known Member
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    I think I'll have to find another heading for this thread
     
    #57
  18. Cyclonic

    Cyclonic Well Hung Member

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    I couldn't agree more Gendel.
     
    #58
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  19. Grendel

    Grendel Well-Known Member

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    I think you are fine Ron, unless someone nominates Thistlecrack :emoticon-0111-blush

    I had to laugh at someone on a forum I went into largely by accident, reading thoughts about the Cheltenham Gold Cup the following Spring. One person nominated Thistlecrack, reasoning that he could win it and retire unbeaten to begin his stud career. Comedy gold that was. I reckon he would have been two stones worse off at stud. :evil:
     
    #59
  20. Cyclonic

    Cyclonic Well Hung Member

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