Its just anti coolmore imo, im not their biggest fan by any stretch but I dont let it effect my opinion on their horses, a class horse is a class horse.
I think this is probably the crux of the matter Dex, that not enough has been seen as yet to declare him a great or simply a decent horse in a poor year. I respect that it's just as possible to give the benefit of the doubt on his best performance and just as possible to take a dimmer view on his less stirling performance. I think i appear in greater opposition towards Camalot than i actually am in response to him being hailed a great prematurely (in my opinion). Let's see what happens, lets see if he takes on the older horses and shows he's class lets see if he puts in a head in the chest performance against the horses at the weekend. If he does i will certainly be willing to say that my view of him was wrong and i judged him too quickly, and this may well be the case.
Camelot's form is ripped to pieces- he hasn't gone anywhere near the elite horses horses. Some of that through no fault of his or connections own (you cant choose who you face in classics) but they should have had him in open company by now and there has been plenty of opportunity over both 10f and 12f. He always looked a bit special like he might be a serious Group 1 horse but so far his career has been underwhelming. On face value I think he does possess the talent to win the Leger though I will give a more defintive writeup on that very soon. I hope they do the right thing and bring him back as a 4 year old to take on the best over middle distances but more so I want to see him face Frankel over 10f on Champions Day. Lets see where he is in comparison. Ballydoyle however is a PR machine and nothing else. They could have proved him a very special colt but instead he has been wrapped up and won't achieve anything. It is a flimsy triple crown. It is harsh, but I cannot see any form perspective to argue otherwise That said- I do think he looks special, he has that quality about him and I don't think anyone has seen the best of him yet. But he needs the chance to prove it. It will be a shame for the horse if he is allowed to have a 'what if' career.
Some widely differing opinions on the Camelot campaign. I don't think he has been "wrapped up" at all. He ran in the 2000 guineas over an inadequate trip and then contested the greatest flat race on the planet.I'm not quite sure what else he could have done other than win those two classics. Camelot then ran in the Irish Derby on bottomless ground to support the race,it's sponsors and reward the Irish racing public who booked in advance.This was a big risk to take but I believe it was a sporting one and certainly didn't constitute the horse being "wrapped up". Connections then settled on a plan to win the Triple Crown and go some way to restoring the stature of the Leger.I can remember John Oxx getting lambasted for not aiming STS at the race.It really impossible to please everyone.Again this is exposing the horse to the possibility of him not staying and running him outside his comfort zone..."wrapped up"?..not imo. No Triple Crown is "flimsy" and to say Camelot "won't achieve anything" in victory is more than a little harsh. If he runs after the Leger it will be in the Arc which is,and will always remain,a much more prestigious race than The Champion Stakes. I agree it would be great to see the clash of the generations but this horse has his own agenda ,just like Frankel has his. In short IF he wins the Leger he will remain unbeaten and have won four Classics from 1m to 1m6f this season and five G1's in succession.I really struggle to see how anyone can pick holes in that. I stress the IF and agree,as I posted earlier,that he needs to prove himself against the other generations to live up to his star billing but he has been pretty flawless so far. I'm prepared to wait until he comes unstuck before trying to discredit him. I think thats only fair. I concur that it would be sad if connections did bow out this year and replace the deceased Montjeu with him at stud. That would be two "what if" horses retiring this year.
I think yours is a pretty sensible argument. I think my post in short should have said Camelot is a pretty special talent. Winning a triple crown is obviously an achievement but winning The Derby from Main Sequence and Astrology means its hard to measure his true ability. After wining a Leger, do you think he will go for an Arc or Champion tilt? After all the Leger will be just his 4th run of the season amd all of them well spread out.
I hope no one thinks I am crabbing Camelot by posting his form, it was purely a factual exercise. I maintain that, personally, he has not excited me as an all time great to date, but I do believe he is a very good horse and he has the potential to be a great. I do think, however, that Coolmore will have the slight worry in the back of their minds that Montjeu has yet to prove himself as a sire of sires - Authorized, Motivator and Hurricane Run have all failed to live up to the hype so far.
Toppy I would imagine he'll go for the Arc but it all depends whether he wins the Leger which is far from certain and if he has a real slog. It would be awful if he retired after Saturday because,whilst foot perfect so far,he still has,as several have rightly stated,lots to prove. The Arc stats favour him and others of his generation. I'm pretty sure if he lands the Arc he'll be off to the sheds to replace his father.Only a defeat will keep him training imo. Ultimately his future plans rely on what transpires on Town Moor at 3.40pm on Saturday.
If he wins the Leger, I think they'll give the Arc the big swerve. Why risk the "grand feat" with a possible failure in France? For the most part, the owners of these top colts are only really interested in what comes after racing. No Arc for mine if he wins on the weekend, and I'd be surprised if he showed up next season.
The Arc massively favours three year olds, with the weight allowance. Since 1990, the 22 runnings have been won by 17 three year olds.
For my tuppence worth ................. I don't think a 3YO can be classed as an "all time great" unless he/she has taken on older horses, either in their classic season or as a 4YO. As we have seen on numerous occaisions, both the Guineas and Derby can be won by some right dross and for me none of the classics can be used in isolation to define greatness - it's the Eclipse, King George, Arc, QEII and other top all-age races which define the true champions. If Camelot wins the St leger then retires he will have shown versatility in terms of trip and going but he won't have won a race which could elevate him to greatness - he just hasn't faced quality older opposition. That's not to say he isn't a great, just that he could be but would need to prove it.
Yeah Oddy, it's nice for the kid to beat the other kids, but he'd have to beat the best of all ages around today to be concidered a great.
Camelot has been unlucky in that he is racing at the same time as Frankel. if he wasn't I am sure there may have been more interest in him. Also I agree this is a shocking year for 3 year olds. the fact is though he has an outstanding chace to be the first Triple Crown champion in 42 years and that reason alone has persuaded me to travel north to Doncaster on Saturday. if he were to win that then it would really set the Arc up and would make it even more of a shame that Frankel wasn't there. The Triple Crown champion v the Greatest of all Time would have been the race of the century!
I suspect all we could hope for is a match race. The Montjeu v Dubai Millennium race almost came off, but it took Sheikh Mo to say "£5million of my money £5million of yours, winner takes all." I don't think Coolmore would be the ones to initiate.
I was not aware of this Princess, that would have been a match to savour. I must have been asleep at the time as i never heard of Sheikh Mo offering a £5m wager. I really like the form stats that you put together as you did the same for Frankel before the Juddmonte. I think we can get overly emotionally invested in horses (which is part of the fun of racing actually) but the facts always tell the real story and i think the way you present form facts provides a really accurate picture. For the sake of this debate i really hope Camalot is allowed run in the Arc against his older peers as if he gets put to stud before being allowed to show what he can do it will be a shame for us racing fans and although the record will say Triple crown winner the form will paint a slightly less grand picture and there is every chance he would have been able to take the Arc.
Wow wait a minute here we have a horse going for the triple crown the first time in 40 years and people scrutinise the form of the horse or the current 3 year old crop ! The horses that have taken him on have been slammed every time and for the derby victories only so many turned up because he was in the race . He is also very lightly raced 3 year old having 5 runs . He will prove himself in the arc and next years races and will retire to stud a greater horse than frankel ! Camelot will have achieved more in his 3 year old career than frankel this is fact !
The racing fans amongst us are doubtless hoping that Camelot does win the St Leger – and, therefore, The Triple Crown – on Saturday. I think it is perfectly fair to list his current form book as it does not amount to a great deal, but it is not his fault that this year’s three year olds look moderate – he can only beat the available opposition. The Triple Crown has not been achieved since 1970, but in that time only two horses have statistically had the chance to complete it – both Nashwan and Sea The Stars ducked the St Leger – so some credit should be given to connections for targeting it. I hope that win or lose the horse is not packed off to stud after such a short career as his performances do give the impression of a great horse or at least a very, very good one.
I actually agree with QM...!! ...except I actually don't care whether Camelot wins the Leger or not.I don't wish him the success.If he's good enough he'll win. I'd personally love Ursa Major to prevail and cap a most unusual and unlikely,but thus far highly successful,partnership betwen Tommy Carmody and Andrew Tinkler. I got into racing as a kid watching the former riding I'm A Driver in 2m chases...anyone remember him?..a real trail blazing fast and fearless jumper. I'd love Nathanial to beat Frankel as well...he's a huge favourite of mine although I'm aware i'm committing equine heresy. I thought we were a nation that supported the underdog!..must be my fighting 25% Basque genealogy breaking through!
Apologies for an aside on a flat racing thread....does anyone have footage of (or remember) the 1979 Buchanan Whiskey Gold Cup at Ascot. I'm A Driver ran in that. Bonus point for who can name the winner and where he ran in his previous outing...and who won that race. Nerd alert!!
