If you honestly believe that the vast majority of fans sing the songs being referred to in order to educate others then there is no point me elaborating on my point... It would end up in a pointless conversation!
There is a point, because I never said that the vast majority of fans sing these songs are sung to educate. I said that these songs are sung to educate/facilitate education. I appreciate that there are those who do it for other reasons and what percentage of the support that do that, I could only guess at. Everyone that sings the songs is on a scale of somewhere from knowing **** all about it to knowing quite a lot about it. The hope is that more and more will have a greater understanding through this medium.
Without going into this in too much depth Reb I cannot think of many "football" songs which have educated others. I suppose several people may be interested enough in the background of a new song to try and find out more, but i do suspect they would be in the the minority. For them to do any research on a song they would surely have to be that way inclined (politically) in the first place.
in my opinion, these irish political or irish historical folk songs have no place at football. the minority then do no need to educate the masses at a football ground as all it does is allow the majority to join in singing these songs without a clue as to what it means or to why it woudl offend some (THE MAJORITY?) of people... Me, I find songs about the IRA offensive - why, cause I asscoiate the term IRA with murdering terrorists. I have no want to be "educated" on the historical IRA, their struggle etc as it has **** all to do with Scotland and shouldn't be mentioned at football grounds. Same goes for Irish polictics. I am a scotsman, who follows a scottish team in a scottish league (like the majority of fans at CP) - Do I give a **** about irish politics - no. Does it have a place at a football ground - no. Where is it's place - Ireland!
Some of this is probably covered in my last comment. Iâm just going through things block by block when I have the time, so excuse any repetition or the fact it may occasionally seem like Iâm not taking all youâve said into consideration. (I always get to everything eventually, okay, but it may take some time.) âIf the point is to reach out and educate folk, then there is no better placeâ [to sing these songs]. I suppose it would need to be shown that this was the point and this may be impossible to prove, whilst some Celtic fans (on this page, at least) may already be seen to dispute such a thing. I would certainly have my doubts as to the reliability of such a claim, although this wouldnât necessarily interest me. I would tend to be more interested in what drives people towards the presumption that they are either fit enough/objective enough or in any way qualified to assume the role of educator in Scotland (and all of those other things I asked in my last comment). But no better place for teaching about Irish Republican ideals? Hmm. A football ground in Scotland is absolutely the best place for teaching people about Irish Republicanism? I have no sensible response to this. Would you feel, just out of interest and as a general point of principle, that it might sometimes be better for a diaspora (any diaspora) to embrace the host culture rather than incessantly harking back to their own? I think of those British on the Costa del Whatever and their charmlessly stubborn fixation with the Old Island and their rather ghastly pride in refusing to assimilate. I just donât find this sort of thing attractive. Should the Irish diaspora in Scotland be similarly educated about Scottish history, do you think, or must they stay exclusively focused on their (inexorably diluted) Irishness? How many generations do you feel it takes before someone might be considered Scottish, or Scottish enough, in any event, to happily let go of those issues that seem to so vex you? Iâm not saying thereâs no place for learning about such things, I just wonder about...well, everything, really. Iâll need to think about it a bit more. I can certainly never imagine taking it upon myself to sing Scottish history at a match in Ireland in order to educate anyone much at all, let alone any passing Scottish diaspora (and we are legion). Anyway, just one other thing before I make myself some much-needed coffee: what is the âmessageâ, exactly, that you wish to share with these people? (2-1 Rangers. Jesus. So near. And things were going so well. I still say Aberdeen are improving, however, so all is not entirely lost. It just very temporarily feels like it.)
23 points clear from where I'm slouching, Username. Rebelbhoy, back again for a moment before heading off out to the joys of an expectant Skibbereen.... Nothing to see here, people, move on. I think weâre more or less kissing each other over these particular things, gently discovering our man-warmths as we snuggle towards an explosively satisfying agreement. Although I would just reiterate that I wasnât ascribing a belligerence or stubbornness to your character traits, I was setting myself up in an imagined position (as an Irish Republican sympathiser who liked to sing Republicany songs at a football match in Scotland or similar) in order to ask myself questions. It may seem like a convoluted way of doing things, fair enough, but I always prefer to keep things impersonal, where possible, as this tends to steer things clear of those soul-destroying screaming matches so often found on the internet. My only defence: Iâm not six and, whilst I may still have the occasional heartbreaking issue with both things, Iâm generally pretty happy with the size and performance of both my bank account and penis. Keeps me straight, for sure.
My feeling on this is that, in general, people sing songs at football in order to feel a sense of community or 'belonging'. In the case of republican songs at Celtic games, this presumably is a sense of tradition and 'irishness' or perhaps just a **** you to those who are seen (rightly or wrongly) to oppose this 'irishness'. The problem is that it seems a lot of celtic fans, rather than being made to feel part of a bigger community through these songs are actually irritated or alienated by them. Most people have no objection to irish songs per se, (in fact I'm sure plenty of people like me enjoy quite a few of them) but it's the IRA stuff we see as outdated, irrelevant and, frankly, objectionable.
I think most of this will be covered by a section in my last (but one) comment? (Do you accept that people have a right not to be subjected to these songs etc and respecting their rights whilst utilising your own etc and blah blah blah. I think this probably all broadly falls under that same umbrella. Here's hoping, anyway, otherwise we may be here till forever.) Quite right. I would never waste my time discussing such potentially fraught matters with someone who wasn't sincere, smart, committed and polite. I just don't think I would learn anything that way. Rebel ticks these boxes, so I'm more than happy with that.
âQuite simply if you stop talking about it, it gets forgotten or put to one side.â Maybe, maybe not, but Iâm not sure anyone has suggested that these things must never be talked about, have they? This discussion (as far as Iâm aware) is specifically about people singing songs at a football match. The distinction is rather important. We may be on entirely different wavelengths here, but I honestly canât see Irish Republicanism (or certain aspects thereof) simply being forgotten about altogether if Celtic fans stop singing certain songs at certain games. Can you? This is a leap too far, surely? Would your own Republicanism wither on the vine? If it wouldnât, then how do you feel equipped to make assumptions on behalf of other people? And if it would, then Iâll hope youâll forgive me for saying that the strength of your beliefs would immediately become questionable, to say the least. Would your memories disappear? Would you find it impossible to think of other ways you might pass on what youâve learnt, if the urge to do so is as strong as you seem to suggest? âA legitimate political expression should not be legislated against or forcibly removed.â Yes. âIf it dies out organically, then that is the way it goes. I'll have to accept that.â Yes, although that would be a shame. âIt would also change my relationship with the club.â And this would also be a shame. âThe club has always had that link with those seeking Irish freedom. Be it the boardroom in the early years, or the fans in later years. I accept that to many this aspect of the club is not of major importance. That is fine. Those folk would have to concede that this is a major part of the clubs DNA and that it matters to some.â Yes. âPerhaps that is getting away from the point.â Nothing wrong with that. I do it all the time. Remember to turn your clocks back people. Goodnight.
I don’t doubt there are those that do it with less than pure motives and that is a concern to me. These songs are not a weapon and it saddens me that they are used as such. My hope is that the people that do treat these songs in such a way are at the very start of a journey to educate themselves. I am aware how corny that sounds, and I don’t know how to make it sound any less so. I suppose there are two questions there. The first I think is brought about by my own inarticulate answer to a previous one. When I speak of the songs educating people, I meant that as ballads, the songs very much speak for themselves. They tell a story that people can understand easily. And by facilitating education I meant that knowing that part of the story, a person is more likely to go away and find things out. In my own case, I don’t know what came first, the chicken or the egg in terms of Irish politics but I know that these songs have inspired me to find out about political situations in South Africa, El Salvador, Chile amongst others. That interest has led me to English folk singers and songs that have taught me about French, Italian and English social issues, or at least made me go away and find out about it. So I guess it isn’t those that sing the sings that assume the role of teacher, rather the songs do the teaching themselves. The second question, yes. Absolutely I can understand why some folk would be less than happy at having the message constantly pushed at them and I absolutely appreciate the comparison to evangelists. Evangelists push the Christian message as it is the duty of all Christians to do just that…..Just that only they really go ahead with it. I suspect it hasn’t gone unnoticed that I go on about this stuff rather a lot, so obviously it is fairly high up on my agenda. I feel it is important to bang the drum…..and the evangelists feel it is important to bang theirs. I have to accept that critique. The defence I can put forward for it is that I have given consideration to why I feel it is an appropriate arena in which to share these songs. I meant fine for people to reject the agenda that I am pushing. That doesn’t mean I am not going to keep pushing it. (I am using “I” as a collective too). Yes, it does trouble me that I am possibly infringing on my fellow supporters rights not to have to listen. I (in this instance I am speaking for myself) am extremely conscious of it. Here is maybe where I do get belligerent and I do get slightly bullish about it. I have to hark back to what the club means to me, what it meant to those that founded the club and the political outlook they had when it came to Irish freedom. The people who support the club and don’t subscribe to that ‘baggage’ should at least be cognisant of the thing it is they belong to. By and large, they are accepting of that. I stopped well short of suggesting that there are other teams to support as that is far far from what I am saying and I hope it doesn’t read like that. In short folk signing up to support Celtic are surely up to speed with all the aspects of the club’s history and support. Folk don’t have to agree with it all but at least know it exists. We are (by and large) able to have the discussion about the songs. I hope I am able to take on board what people have to say and I am more than happy to keep revisiting my position on it. Much more sense than me.
These are not football songs though. They are songs sung at the football. I feel the distinction should be drawn.
Where do you get this minority and majority stuff from? I did mention that people who were to be offended have to take a leap. I accept that leap will be made and you concede you make that leap. As for it having nothing to do with Scotland, well I think it does. I think I have articulated why it does. I think I have articulated why it has a place in a football ground. I accept that you don't give a ****.
I hope I answered that already. Any guesses about who and how many Celtic supporters are in favour/anti rebel songs are just guesstimates. I am uncomfortable with the absolutes afforded the argument by Pud. Taking the opposite stance I can prove nothing. Any assertions made on this issue have to be tempered with the fact that Fergus McCann waged a war on these songs and created a culture whereby people didn't really know where they stood legally on singing these songs. A lot of politically minded supporters have been put off going to games as a result of this and other things ranging from the Nike deal to the appointment of John Reid. Either way, I don't think we can say certainly one way or the other. Football grounds have always been a place in which political ideals are exchanged. A place with a large Irish population, many of whom with relations from the north and north west with a long and sustained relationship with Republican ideals, It makes sense to me. It depends how receptive the host community is. I would consider England to be amongst the most tolerant nations on earth. Yet there remains a hangover from the great Irish Influx of the 50's-80's and to a greater extent post-windrush and also immigration from India, Pakistan, west-Africa. England has coped well but not without tribulations but this has contributed hugely to the multicultural hub that england has become. Certain Religious practices and customs make full integration that bit more difficult (I am not just talking about schooling). I don't think that Scotland has historically been as tolerant and that makes assimilation more difficult. I think America is enriched by people fusing their cultural heritage with the host community......Although I am not sure the Native Americans agree. Should the diaspora be similarly educated in Scottish History. Absolutely. How long does it take to "go native" I don't know. I guess it depends on how receptive the host community is, how much asserting your own culture means to you. I have relations who left Ireland and are all but assimilated in every way and relations who are third generation Irish who still consider themselves Irish. There doesn't have to be any negative connotations to it either. I also don't think the passing of the ages should dictate that you should drop important issues either. The relationship between Scotland and the Union is slightly different but I would say that the Scottish anthem serves to detail your history with england in exactly the same manner as any Irish rebel song. None of that makes sense.....bed.
I have to say rebel bhoy you make very convincing arguments and I would concur with most if not all tthat you say. Just one wee niggling point I have if both sets of fans are singing their hearts out, only a misery old trouble maker could take offence. How could anyone hear what the other side are singing is beyond me as when I go to a Celtic/Rangers match as soon as they start up their usual hateful lyric, the Celtic fans around me drone them out. Problem solved.
You are right, nobody has suggested that it is never talked about and you are right to make that distinction. There has been talk of the singing falling foul of the new legislation. From my perspective making the songs illegal (in that environment) closes an important avenue to commence the process of creating an interest in Republican ideals. I don't know if there is a leap from there to the creation of a political vacuum in which Republican ideals die out. Perhaps I have thought so much into it that I can't see any other outcome than receding interest in Republican should this avenue be closed, the avenue that is most accessible for the uninitiated.
