Phil spent the last 20 years espousing the legitimacy of the position of those who celebrate the ideals of Irish Republicanism at Celtic games. He then rapidly and suddenly revised that position. I understand this was because of the impending legislation. His principles appeared (to me) to be driven by expediency rather than any real conviction. There has since been some backtracking, but the dye was cast for me. Coming off the back of a t-shirt with his face on it and some pleading on the radio that he "broke" the story, it looked like he was the story rather than conveying it. I understand we all have an ego, but this guy takes liberties. That said, I know his professional integrity is of paramount importance to him. I know him to be a sharp guy who is incredibly fast at taking things on board and gaining an understanding of them (the legislation being an exception that may yet haunt him). The Celtic support was attacked on cup final day by McClean and Nevin: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdlM4yTpTFo I am happy to debate the relevancy of the songs they reference to the Celtic support, but I am not prepared to accept the assertion that they are sectarian. The BBC offered a weak defence when complaints were raised, saying that sectarianism can encompass a politically partisan ideal and not just Religious affiliation but I think it crazy to suggest that the terms of reference in Scottish Football when referencing sectarianism can mean anything but Religious Sectarianism. In the last couple of weeks there have been posters on this site saying that ebt's were legal and as such, there should be no problem. Also that the worst case scenario is administration for the club. I don't know if this is deliberately playing dumb, or the real deal. If the latter, I am astounded.
Hello again. I’ve just spent far too long catching up with our Phil, a dubious kind of pursuit for a Saturday night. He is extraordinarily hard to warm to, insufferable, puffed-up and relentless. He also appears to have been right. Who’d have thunk it? He’s maybe a wee bit gloaty for my liking in his latest post, but I’d probably be struggling to resist the temptation in similar circumstances, so I’ll give him a pass. And you went off him because he changed his mind about the legitimacy of celebrating the ideals of Irish Republicanism at Celtic games and you suspected his motives for doing so? Fair enough. What are the best arguments against celebrating the ideals of Irish Republicanism at Celtic games, in your opinion and just out of interest? Thanks very much for the link. I just wish the clip had been slightly longer and I wish they’d gone on to cite specific songs – with a full textual analysis of the lyrics – so that I might have a better idea of what, precisely, they were talking about. (Terrific half-time entertainment, for sure.) Do you happen to know the particular songs they took issue with? As a general principle, however, I’d be perfectly happy to see match commentators and the pundits in the studio make reference to “sectarian” songs every single time they were sung. The problem with this, of course, as you seem to suggest, is that defining such things to begin with may very well prove impossible for people with – hmm, how might this fairly be said? – slightly confused thinking patterns and a tendency, perhaps, to conflate the merely outright offensive (to some) with sectarianism. Considering something to be inappropriate or offensive is not sufficient reason to label it sectarian, after all, and those things we may sometimes consider (merely) inappropriate or (merely) deeply offensive must be borne with resilience by anyone who has the simplest understanding of what it means to live in a free society and would like to continue doing so. Damn. It’s too late all of a sudden and I’m utterly knackered and rapidly losing the power of coherent thought. I’ll need to get back to this later on (hopefully tomorrow). I can't believe - considering it's meant to be what we're talking about - that I've not even got onto Rangers. What a tosser. Right. Night.
It was not so much that he changed his mind. Anyone is entitled to have a change of heart. I’d be disappointed if he had just changed his mind, but he didn’t. He appointed himself as sole arbiter of the Celtic moral compass and proceeded to pontificate as to why I may or may not sing Irish Rebel songs; http://www.philmacgiollabhain.ie/the-celtic-away-support/ http://www.philmacgiollabhain.ie/the-implications-of-the-new-legislation/ The first article came on the heels of the launch of TCN the Celtic Network for whom Phil wrote an introductory piece. He also directed his readers there. Then came the TCN poll he cites in the second article as pseudo evidence to support his position. “I’m right, and here is a poll I am complicit in engineering to prove it”. Anyway, that is by the by, like I say, it isn’t the change of heart, it is that the change of heart is driven by the impending legislation and not necessarily revised principles. As for the arguments against celebrating the ideals of Irish Republicanism at Celtic games, some are detailed in that article by Phil; It may offend people, that it is not relevant to the football club, Sport and politics don’t mix. I have considered these at some length and the most compelling argument against singing these songs is that not everyone in the support is going to share these ideals and it has the capacity to create a division within the support. This is the only argument that holds any merit at all for me and one that constantly needs to be revisited. Oddly it is the only one that doesn’t really get aired that much. I understand the song being sung at the game was Boys of the Old Brigade. I cannot for the life of me see how this can be construed as being in any way sectarian. I think you hit the nail on the head in regards to the difference between sectarian and offensive. Prof Tom Devine spoke incredibly eloquently last month at the Crown Office about that very point. Take it as read that I think the Huns are a bad lot, but I am making this point not to illustrate that they are “much worser than what we are” but to show what this legislation is all about. This legislation will be affected with equal vigour across both sides of the Glasgow divide, be it the offensive behaviour of calling a Rangers supporter a Hun, or the sectarian behaviour of chanting “No Pope of Rome”. Hey presto, under the “Anti-Sectarian” legislation, you have your proof; One side is as bad as the other. This is worth a watch: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LL6lMjdRuxA&feature=related well I suppose there is no point going ahead with the legislation if the Huns go to the wall.
In practise RB sectarian or any other legislation, laws rules or guidelines have rarely been imposed even handed relating to football crowds. To save time I just give you one recent example. Some Celtic fans set off a flare at Hampden Park last season. Police with all kinds of dangerous weapons charged through Celtic fans men, woman and children with no regard whether they injured these or not. Some may say fair enough and I may agree, however the fact that Aberdean fans at the other end set off more than one flare and no police tried to arrest any of those who set off the flares. To me this was another simple example of why all the new legislation won't change a thing unless the mind set of the boys in blue(policemen)
Regardless of its application, previous legislation had always been drafted even handedly. The "offensive behaviour" aspect gives carte blanche to do what they like.
Rebel, Iâve been using the half-time break to try to catch up with what youâve been saying (or linking to) here. I had to check the lyrics to The Boys of the Old Brigade. (Iâve never really been able to clearly work out what Celtic fans are singing about. True story. I just canât seem to pick the words. You might want to tell them to work on their diction, okay? Good man. Obliged.) And if these are exactly the lyrics as sung by Celtic fans, then the survey says: not sectarian. And not only is it not sectarian, it doesnât even come close to being so. Offensive to many (or some) and possibly very hurtful? No doubt. Sectarian? No chance. People need to sharpen up and think with a greater clarity if they want to bandy about such words (and make legislation on the back of them). Careless, lazy thinking should be seen as a very dangerous thing when it comes to making laws in a free society. Makes. Me. Seethe. (And legislating against merely âoffensiveâ behaviour, of course, should be something that chills the blood of anyone with a passing respect for freedom of expression. I'm not sure why this isn't obvious to all parties concerned.) I donât know what âA Ghra Mo Chroiâ means, however, and putting it through Google Translator came up with the translation ârat my heartâ. Intriguing stuff, most definitely. Second half has started, back later..........
Love of my heart, but I think I like "rat" better Those are exactly the words as sung by the Celtic support, the refrain "provisional wing" is generally added after the mention of the IRA. I don't know if that makes it more, or less, offensive but it certainly doesn't make it in any way sectarian. I'm fairly sure that football supporters of all persuasions enjoy insulting their rivals. This, in effect, is what is being legislated against....Crazy As for Sectarian singing. I am not in favour of that being legislated against either. If any happens at a Celtic game, I would hope that there would be a degree of self moderation. I only know of one song that has been sung that may reasonably be construed as such anyway (2 at a stretch but I am not convinced). The Huns are all too aware of the footballing penalties for indulging in such behaviour. That should be enough.
I don't see any rebelling in your attitude. You think the Government legislation is fair, to my mind a rebel would be picking faults in legislation, he wouldn't be backing Rangers and the Government. A rebel would try to side with someone, who speaks against legislation and the application instead of trying to score childish immature points. People can change Michael Collins was a rebel and we know that a wee smile from a fast woman supplied by the British ended his rebelness. I think you knew all that but still want to preserve what is for you a stupid a stupid name.
Oh, ok. You can't understand me. Ok, name me some unfair legislation that is discriminatory against you as a Celtic supporter.
Hey RB - I think sh may have a point LOL! You seem a bit too reasonable in your postings to be a true 'rebel'...and if you have a 'cause', it's not clear what it is.... could it just be the case that you're a fan of James Dean?
First time I have been called reasonable on here My username is in reference to the Rebel County please log in to view this image Although I don't think anything I have ever said on here has been unreasonable.
Back to Rangers for a minute, RB, before moving on: I think a great many people may be scrabbling around trying to come to terms with (what appears to be) a rather complex set of arrangements between Rangers and her employees. Iâve certainly found it rather difficult to understand. The legality or otherwise of an Employee Benefit Trust (EBT) or a Discounted Options Scheme aside, however, I find such practice wholly distasteful. There may occasionally be a very fine line between tax avoidance and tax evasion (and HMRC contend that Rangers have crossed this line and appear confident that they have the evidence to prove it), but those who congratulate themselves on playing this game well have always appeared rather sickly to me, not really the kind of humans I care for. (And yes, I apply this irritating sanctimony to myself â ruthlessly. Iâm a fan of tax and taxes and have never once dreamt of availing myself of a scheme â legal or otherwise â that might allow me to pay less than full whack. Ever. And I fully despise the greed that compels people to seek these loopholes.) They feel the worst case scenario is administration? Hmm. The worst-case scenario is no club, I would have thought, and an abrupt end to 130 or so years of history. Iâm not sure if itâs simply brave talk or head-in-the-sand syndrome, but Iâve not seen any evidence that Rangers fans have fully grasped the gravity of the situation they now find themselves in. If I'm not mistaken, they often seem to feel it's all a concoction by a hostile press or those who would like to see Rangers suffer. Is it actually technically possible to be any more stupid, I wonder? Deary me. Maybe they feel they are immune to the progression of events in some way? Or maybe some things are simply too awful for them to think about and they have this idea in the back of their minds that there will always be a Rangers because anything else would be preposterous? Such an idea is just that - an idea â and is based on nothing but hope and lazily wishful thinking. I really wish they would snap out of their fog and wake up, if for no other reason than itâs irritating as hell to watch people talk carelessly about something they otherwise profess to love. Then again, they may just win their tax case and feel that theyâre off the hook. I wonder if theyâll ever learn? Next week: Phil MacGiollabhain and what it means to sing Irishy songs at Celtic.
I don’t think I could be more in agreement with you about those who elect to avoid/evade taxation. I can understand low earners pulling a stroke, but I reserve a particular distaste for those whose earnings place them in a privileged position in society and then seek to become as “tax efficient” as they can be (A turn of phrase coined to absolve its perpetrators of any moral obligation to society). In that, I include folk earning a handsome wage at Celtic park.
Rb N ow we find you are not a rebel at all, just an accident of birth. Every non Cork person knows that Cork people have a vastly over-rated opinion of themselves. Their opinions need to be taken as a grain of salt. I asked you either yesterday or some day previously to name the Celtic Directors and others who have defrauded the tax man in a similar method as Rangers have. Your refusal indicates you are typical of those people who come from your part of the world all fluster but no substance. You seemed to have your position on Celtic Directors from evasion to avoidance but you have not told us how, someone so distant as one from Cork has evidence of either evasion or avoidance on behalf of Celtic Directors. Even to bring this matter up as a Celtic supporter smacks of pure licking after and pleading to be loved by Ranger fans. Some Celtic fan.
I'm at work so i'll read this later but can I just say I find it scandalous that Rebel and Psycho have not accused each other of being: A: Gay B: Beeling Sensible constructive debate on Not606? It will never catch on.
Superhoops, you can take my opinions any way you please. You are entitled to do that. You did ask me to name the Celtic directors and others who have defrauded the tax man in a similar method as Rangers.As Rangers have not defrauded anyone, the answer to your question is nobody. Does that satisfy you? As for questioning my motives for raising it in the first place, I suggest that pursuing me on the matter, despite having been told the reasons I have elected to hold my own counsel on the matter reveals you to be either a terrible wum, or a buffoon. AS for licking the arse of the Huns, if you say so.
