Ask Princess
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Princess, I don't know whether you are into athletics or not, but just in case you're not, there is a bit of a controversy surrounding hormone levels in women, especially now that the Olympic games are on the door step. There is a South African lady called Caster Semenya who has naturally high levels of testosterone in her system due to being what's called a transgender person. The lady is female, but was born with the ability to produce seriously large amounts of testosterone. I've read that in the upcoming women's 800m final, there could be as many as 5 such athletes lining up to fight for the medals. I won't go into the bits and pieces of the rulings that have taken place, but the issue has caused me to wonder if such cases are part of the breeding scene in racing stock?
Cyc, whilst I can't think of any off the top of my head, I do know of some fillies and mares that have been discovered to have things like ovarian tumours which cause high levels of testosterone. It is usually noticed due to particularly aggressive tendencies in the affected mares.
Certainly there is a school of thought that very good race mares are often failures in the breeding shed, the high levels of testosterone that give them the competitive edge often resulting in lost pregnancies, weak foals, etc. Look at Soviet Song: she was retired to stud in 2007 and in the following eight years before her death (in November 2015) produced just three foals, one of which died shortly after birth in 2015. Her only runner to date was an Oasis Dream gelding called Soviet Dream who finished last on each of his two starts. She has a two year old filly by Speightstown who is yet to be named.
Certainly there is a school of thought that very good race mares are often failures in the breeding shed, the high levels of testosterone that give them the competitive edge often resulting in lost pregnancies, weak foals, etc. Look at Soviet Song: she was retired to stud in 2007 and in the following eight years before her death (in November 2015) produced just three foals, one of which died shortly after birth in 2015. Her only runner to date was an Oasis Dream gelding called Soviet Dream who finished last on each of his two starts. She has a two year old filly by Speightstown who is yet to be named.
I ought to add, as an aside, I am very wary of the transgender situation in athletics/competitive sport in general. The way the rules have been written means that any man who has undergone 1 year of hormone treatment (but is not required to have surgery) can compete in women's events. Surely in these situations the "man" has a distinct advantage as his frame will be larger and stronger than that of anyone born female? It makes me feel very uneasy.
Now that the Court of Arbitration has overturned the set limit of 10 nanomols of testosterone per litre, the IAAF has some serious thinking to do before the games. I'm sure they'll have something in place that'll prevent a "man" from contesting a women's event, but I can't see them being able to stop women who naturally produces five times more testosterone than the average female, from competing. That ever suspect 800m record could go in the not too distant future.
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The Speightstown/Soviet Song filly is called Roubles
http://www.jamesfanshawe.com/horses-in-training/horses/item/roubles-usa
The Speightstown/Soviet Song filly is called Roubles and is in training with James Fanshaw
http://www.jamesfanshawe.com/horses-in-training/horses/item/roubles-usa
http://www.jamesfanshawe.com/horses-in-training/horses/item/roubles-usa
The Speightstown/Soviet Song filly is called Roubles and is in training with James Fanshaw
http://www.jamesfanshawe.com/horses-in-training/horses/item/roubles-usa
Can these mares with a large measure of testosterone be treated? I've read that the athletes who tested above the restricted 10 nanomol limit, could be treated in such a way that the amount of testosterone could be reduced over a period of time. Does anyone know if this was tried on the mares?
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I'm not sure. I know there are testosterone levels permitted in blood/urine levels though the thresholds are different depending on whether the horse is a mare, gelding or entire. I've never heard of a mare failing on such a test so I'm not sure how they would pick them up until they went to the breeding shed.
Hate the USA term "Breeding Shed".
Coronation V, Boussac's promiscuously bred winner of the Prix de L'Arc de Triomphe failed to conceive, I read somewhere that she had a physical derformaty and wonder if this was one of the tumours you mention.
Many top class fillies failed to produce top class foals, Petite Etoile being another with a small output of progeny. On the other side Sun Chariot and Noblesse produced many good foals.
Coronation V, Boussac's promiscuously bred winner of the Prix de L'Arc de Triomphe failed to conceive, I read somewhere that she had a physical derformaty and wonder if this was one of the tumours you mention.
Many top class fillies failed to produce top class foals, Petite Etoile being another with a small output of progeny. On the other side Sun Chariot and Noblesse produced many good foals.
Don't you mean incestuously rather than promiscuously
Interesting post. I sometimes think that families skip a generation. Hypericum was a fine filly but never got anything near her ability but her daughter Highlight then produced Highclere who was a wonderful filly. Though her daughter Height of Fashion was a good filly her produce was much better than she was.
I also have a notion that inbreeding works against you at the moment you reach its height of success. I then believe it takes a generation or two of outcrossing to get the potency back. A lot of Boussac's mares went to the Aga Khan in the 70s but the real success came through with these families 20-25 years later. Just a notion. We'd have to dig up Charles Leicester and get him to do the analysis.
Interesting post. I sometimes think that families skip a generation. Hypericum was a fine filly but never got anything near her ability but her daughter Highlight then produced Highclere who was a wonderful filly. Though her daughter Height of Fashion was a good filly her produce was much better than she was.
I also have a notion that inbreeding works against you at the moment you reach its height of success. I then believe it takes a generation or two of outcrossing to get the potency back. A lot of Boussac's mares went to the Aga Khan in the 70s but the real success came through with these families 20-25 years later. Just a notion. We'd have to dig up Charles Leicester and get him to do the analysis.
Well it could have been both....here Tourbillon was a bit of a one....!
Good typo!
I don't have the updated Charles Leicester, but he does have a section about classic mares being poor producers.
Perhaps one of us should list them statistically on here (that is post Leicester) and see if the trends have changed.
I do agree about the skipping of generations and many a breeder has got a bargain by purchasing a none winning daughter of a classic winning mare who has failed at stud.
Good typo!
I don't have the updated Charles Leicester, but he does have a section about classic mares being poor producers.
Perhaps one of us should list them statistically on here (that is post Leicester) and see if the trends have changed.
I do agree about the skipping of generations and many a breeder has got a bargain by purchasing a none winning daughter of a classic winning mare who has failed at stud.
I've just received my copy of the Tattersalls July Sale catalogue which a somewhat heftier than normal. On inspection it is clear to see why - Godolphin are offering 79 horses for sale:
1 horse (Listed winner Tha'ir)
34 broodmares
44 fillies out of training
I had heard that in line with the merger of the Darley and Godolphin operations they were going to start streamlining the number of horses, but this is a large number of such a, relatively, small sale. We'll see what they do come the Autumn Horses in Training Sale and the December Breeding Stock Sale.
1 horse (Listed winner Tha'ir)
34 broodmares
44 fillies out of training
I had heard that in line with the merger of the Darley and Godolphin operations they were going to start streamlining the number of horses, but this is a large number of such a, relatively, small sale. We'll see what they do come the Autumn Horses in Training Sale and the December Breeding Stock Sale.
I was saddened to hear that Lanwades sire, Leroidesanimaux, has been put down. He had just commenced his 3rd covering season at Lanwades when he had an accident in the paddocks which he didn't recover from.
A grandson of Blushing Groom he was out of an Ahonoora sister to Hasili (dam of Dansili etc.). He had only one line of Northern Dancer in his pedigree. He sired the Kentucky Derby winner Animal Kingdom, when standing in the US. We'll see the first Newmaket conceived 2yos next year.
A grandson of Blushing Groom he was out of an Ahonoora sister to Hasili (dam of Dansili etc.). He had only one line of Northern Dancer in his pedigree. He sired the Kentucky Derby winner Animal Kingdom, when standing in the US. We'll see the first Newmaket conceived 2yos next year.
Interesting article from RP:
Well-bred twin foals who could race each other
By James Thomas 2:07PM 28 JUN 2016
MADEIRA MIST has already had a productive broodmare career, with the three-time Grade 1 winner Joshua Tree and the useful Stencive among her eight progeny to have made the track.
However, her 2014 produce could be set to capture the public's imagination before they have even set foot on the racecourse.
In 2013 Madeira Mist, a Grade 3-winning daughter of Grand Lodge, visited Irish National Stud stalwart Invincible Spirit, a covering that resulted in filly twins the following February.
The pair were bred by Castlemartin Stud and Skymarc Farm, the breeding operation run by Lady O'Reilly, who said the duo's arrival was far from expected.
"It was a surprise for everybody," recalled O'Reilly. "When they were born one was much bigger than the other and it was supposed that the smaller one might not make it. But they've both made it and the smaller one grew and now they're very similar in size, albeit with slightly different markings."
The pair have been named Magic Mist and Madeira Moon, with O'Reilly adding: "One looks rather compact and is a stronger, speedier type, while the other is a little rangier and looks as if she'll take longer."
While it is rare for a thoroughbred to produce twins it is even more unusual for the progeny to prove up to the rigours of training - however, that seems to be the case with Madeira Moon and Magic Mist.
"They've both been to pre-training," O'Reilly explained. "They've just come back home but they're both trainable."
Should they both end up going into training there is also a chance that one day they could end up racing against each other.
Asked if the idea of having the twins racing against one another appealed, O'Reilly said: "I hadn't thought that far ahead but that would be quite funny! We might try to do it just to make history.
"One looks more of a sprinting type but you never know, they're only two-year-olds, so it could happen."
Well-bred twin foals who could race each other
By James Thomas 2:07PM 28 JUN 2016
MADEIRA MIST has already had a productive broodmare career, with the three-time Grade 1 winner Joshua Tree and the useful Stencive among her eight progeny to have made the track.
However, her 2014 produce could be set to capture the public's imagination before they have even set foot on the racecourse.
In 2013 Madeira Mist, a Grade 3-winning daughter of Grand Lodge, visited Irish National Stud stalwart Invincible Spirit, a covering that resulted in filly twins the following February.
The pair were bred by Castlemartin Stud and Skymarc Farm, the breeding operation run by Lady O'Reilly, who said the duo's arrival was far from expected.
"It was a surprise for everybody," recalled O'Reilly. "When they were born one was much bigger than the other and it was supposed that the smaller one might not make it. But they've both made it and the smaller one grew and now they're very similar in size, albeit with slightly different markings."
The pair have been named Magic Mist and Madeira Moon, with O'Reilly adding: "One looks rather compact and is a stronger, speedier type, while the other is a little rangier and looks as if she'll take longer."
While it is rare for a thoroughbred to produce twins it is even more unusual for the progeny to prove up to the rigours of training - however, that seems to be the case with Madeira Moon and Magic Mist.
"They've both been to pre-training," O'Reilly explained. "They've just come back home but they're both trainable."
Should they both end up going into training there is also a chance that one day they could end up racing against each other.
Asked if the idea of having the twins racing against one another appealed, O'Reilly said: "I hadn't thought that far ahead but that would be quite funny! We might try to do it just to make history.
"One looks more of a sprinting type but you never know, they're only two-year-olds, so it could happen."
That is rare. Usually one twin won't ever get into training and usually they both are not up to much. We'll see if they are any good.
Nannina's grand-dam was a twin.
Nannina's grand-dam was a twin.
Thanks pN. Was interested to see when looking through my records that the Royal Stud had 4 mares covered by Dubawi in 2015 which is a large number for a stud of 25 or so mares. I know Estimate had a colt (which Warren says is perfect) but hope the other 3 mares foaled (Caraboss, Golden Stream and Enticement).