Ask Princess

Fascinating stuff Princess. If only I could understand it all. I'm not sure if the theory is any different in afghan hounds (or any other species) except that the chances of getting what you want with a thoroughbred is far less than with afghan hounds. At least with them you get a litter of 8 to 12 and you can pick the best one or two. With a thoroughbred you just get the one. What are the chances of that one being the best of what might have been?

You just have to look at repeat matings in thoroughbreds to see the different results you can get.

All I know is that if you start off with a poor mare you would have to be extremely fortunate to get a good foal from a top stallion. Similarly if you use a poor stallion on a good mare you would have to be extremely fortunate to get a good foal.

If you have a good mare with excellent conformation and temperament and a good pedigree, then using a sire with excellent conformation and temperament and a good pedigree your chances of a good foal are significantly increased. If there are any conformation/temperament faults in the pedigrees you have to ensure you don't double up on any of those faults.

Nevertheless, having done all the research and taken all the precautions you can still consider yourself fortunate if getting a good foal.

 

I've dug the book out and found the relevant paragraph, I actually understated the figures! The horse has 32 pairs or chromosomes, so there are 2 to the power of 64 different combinations that can be passed on by sire and dam. A quick Google tells me this is: 18,446,744,073,709,551,616!

It means it is virtually impossible for full-siblings to be truly identical.

 

All you say is correct Ron and makes breeding so fascinating. It is not a total lottery though. You can look at breeders who have got things right and got things wrong. The Joels are a good example as is Holiday. Why did the Boussac empire crumble away? All interesting cases.

 

I agree Bustino that it's not a total Lottery. I believe it is with most but the breeders with a long term breeding plan, sticking to successful lines and only going out where they can see a distinct probability of improving the line have a much better chance of success. I see the same in afghan hound breeding. Some indiscriminate breeding going on in places where the uninitiated think they can put their bitch to the latest champion and get a good litter. As you well know, it doesn't work like that. The long term successful breeders consistently produce good litters due to careful line breeding with carefully selected outcrosses to introduce improvements in certain areas. A lot of American, Australian and Scandinavian afghans are very flashy and to the amateur look great in the ring; but their conformation is not great so movement is not correct. However some of them do have good conformation and they can be used to improve the "style of high order" which has been lost in a lot of English lines. There are some good examples of this today.

 

pN, noticed Green Desert has just died at the grand age of 32.
Hugely influential sire, absolutely huge.
Sons:
Oasis Dream (sire of Arcano, Showcasing, Midday and Approve)
Desert Style (sire of Paco Boy)
Cape Cross (sire of Sea the Stars (sire of Sea the Moon), Ouija Board, Golden Horn)
and Invincible Spirit (sire of Kingman, Mayson, Lawman, and Zebedee).
Also the damsire of many good horses including a Melbourne Cup winner.

I'm sure you can name many more.

 

Yes I meant to get online yesterday to mention the great horse's passing. Funnily enough I was up at Juddmonte viewing the stallions with some guests and had just seen Oasis Dream when the news came though. All the boys are looking exceptionally well up there, Frankel of course but Kingman in particular.

Green Desert has been a massive influence on the breed in Europe and he and his paternal half-brother Danehill are almost solely responsible for the success of the Danzig line in Europe.

You've named his most successful stallion sons, and in addition to those he also sired the G1 winners DESERT PRINCE, OWINGTON, MARKAB, SHEIKH ALBADOU, TAMARISK and DESERT LORD. As a broodmare sire his G1 winners include MAKFI, BRACELET, LUCKY NINE AND WAS.

 

Keeneland September Yearling Sale has got underway in the last few hours. I'll put up any significant purchases on this thread plus will update on the Frankel's due to sell over the next few days on the dedicated thread.

 

The opening session of Keeneland September was topped by a War Front filly selling to Shadwell for $1,450,000. The filly is the first foal out of G3 placed Betterbetterbetter (Galileo), who is herself a 3/4 sister to G1 winners Yesterday and Quarter Moon. The mare was bought in 2013 carrying this filly for a whopping $5,200,000. The filly is likely to be sent to John Gosden though a final decision is yet to be made.

The first yearling by Frankel offered in North America sold to agent Hugo Merry (on behalf of Prince Faisal's Nawara Stud) for $500,000. No plans have been decided but he is likely to return to Europe to race.

Other European buyers in action included:

John Ferguson: bought 15 lots for a total of $6,300,000
M V Magnier bought 3 lots for a total of $1,150,000
Shadwell bought 3 lots for a total of $2,225,000
Juddmonte bought 2 lots for a total of $825,000
Grove Stud (Breeze up consignors) bought 1 lot for $60,000
BBA Ireland (agents)( bought 1 lot for $150,000


You can follow the sale on the Keeneland website. It runs from now until 26th September with a blank day on 17th September.

 

Keeneland Day Two

The second session was topped by a Distorted Humor colt sold to Three Chimneys Farm for $1,525,000.

The Frankel colt (Lot 332) was led out unsold after bidding stalled at $275,000.

Europeans in action included:

John Ferguson - 4 bought for $960,000
Shadwell - 3 bought for $1,625,000
Juddmonte - 2 bought for $755,000
M V Magnier - 1 bought for $900,000
Blandford Bloodstock (agents) - 1 bought for $425,000
Mags O'Toole (agent) - 1 bought for $45,000

 

Keeneland Day Three, final session of Book One.

The session was topped by a Tapit colt sold to Whisper Hill Farm for $2,100,000.

Two Frankel colts were offered, one (out of Rose of Summer) made $800,000 whilst the other (out of Tashzara) railed to reach his reserve at $250,000.

Europeans were again in action:

Shadwell 2 bought for $625,000
John Ferguson 2 bought for $325,000
M V Magnier 1 bought for $1,150,000
Juddmonte 1 bought for $400,000
Blandford Bloodstock 1 bought for $250,000
Mags O'Toole 1 bought for $35,000

Today is a "dark day" with no selling. The sale resumes tomorrow and concludes on 26th September.

 

Tattersalls have released a flashy brochure to coincide with their Book One sale. It is well worth a read if you get the chance with articles by Tony Morris and a look at how the Frankel yearlings are likely to do.

Link here

 

Darley have just announced that Golden Horn will stand at Dalham Hall next year

http://www.darleyeurope.com/news/golden-horn-stand-darley

 

It'll be interesting to see what they set his fee at. I'm guessing it'll be around the £50,000 mark.

 

I'm not surprised he is going to stand with Darley. He looks remarkably like his sire (who is not in the first flush of youth) and the owner wanted him to be at Newmarket

 

I'll be honest, I thought the Oppenheimer's would go independent and choose either Lanwades or the National Stud. I guess the ££££'s on offer from Darley were too good to turn down. It does sound like he has retained a significant portion of shares though as the Darley press release talks about "buying into" the horse.

 

October Book One yearling sale gets underway at 11am today. The cream of the crop will be on offer, including no less than 18 sons and daughters of Frankel. I'll be posting dedicated Frankel updates on the Frankel thread but will highlight other prices of note on here.

Watch the sale live here

 

Lot 24 is a Redoute's Choice half-sister to Legatissimo.
Lot 43 is a colt by the daddy Galileo and out of a Green Desert half-sister to the Oaks winner Was (who was by Galileo).
Lot 59 is a colt by Sea the Stars out of a Sadler's Wells mare whose dam was a champion European filly.
Lot 123 has a lot to recommend him being by Dubawi out of Chiang Mai (dam of China White) and the same family as Invincible Spirit/Kodiac. If he's a looker I can see there being a lot of interest in him.
Lot 141 has a nice pedigree. By Dansili out of Crystal Maze, he is from the Joel family of Royal Palace, Fairy Footsteps, Welsh Pageant, Light Cavalry and last but not least Humorist. About time the family had another good 'un.
Lot 152 is by a stallion I think will make a splash (even if smaller than Frankel) at these sales and that is Nathaniel. This colt is out of Dash to the Front from that wonderful Meon Valley family of Milligram, One in a Million and countless others.
Lot 171 is the last lot of the day and that must be a tough slot on such an auspicious day. A filly by Sea the Stars out of an unraced mare called Dream Vision. You have to look back in her pedigree and the memories start flooding back of Rainbow Quest, Warning, Commander in Chief and many others.

Although Lot 148 is likely to make the highest price it's not all about Frankel today. I'd be surprised if one or two of these don't make near a million.

 

Thanks Bustino, though Lot 43 is in fact a full-brother to WAS.

Here's the EBN's "ones to watch" list:

Lot 3, a New Approach three-parts-sister to the four-time Gr.1 winner Dawn Approach,
Lot 15, a New Approach colt out of a half-sister to two Gr.1 winners and to the dam of four-time Gr.1 victrix The Fugue,
Lot 23, a Frankel colt out of a Gr.1-placed half-sister to Gr.1 winner Diamondsandrubies; grandam is Gr.1 winner Quarter Moon,
Lot 24, a Redoute’s Choice half-sister to this season’s triple Gr.1 winner Legatissimo,
Lot 33, an Exceed And Excel three-parts-brother to this year’s Gr.2 Coventry takes winner Buratino,
Lot 43, a Galileo full-brother to Gr.1 Oaks winner Was,
Lot 81, an Exceed And Excel half-brother to Australian Gr.1 victrix Dariana,
Lot 123, a Dubawi half-brother to Gr.1 winner Chinese White; shares his grandam with Invincible Spirit,
Lot 125, a Frankel colt, his first-born offspring, out of dual Gr.3 winner Chrysanthemum,
Lot 145, a Nathaniel colt out of a half-sister to two Gr.1 winners and to the dam of four-time Gr.1 victrix The Fugue,
Lot 148, a Frankel half-brother to the multiple Gr.3-placed De Treville, out of the triple Gr.1 winner Dar Re Mi,
Lot 156, a Sepoy half-sister to the multiple Gr.1-winning sprinter Sole Power,
Lot 160, a Frankel half-brother to the Gr.1-winning sprinter Total Gallery,