Ask Princess - July 2012

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Would have been an interesting covering session with the Shetland mare and the Shire stallion, that's for sure!
 
Ron said:
Just to show how risky a business it is, Black Caviar's sire, Bel Esprit, produced 29 other foals (known to RP) who between them won a grand total of 5 races...
Click to expand...

That attachment shows horse's rated from 118 down to a lowly 55, taking in 76 runs with only 5 wins...!!!

To say a bit of luck is needed and how risky it is is a understatement...!!!
 
The statistics are not great, whoever you look at. Galileo has an impressive 34% strike rate with his runners, but that still means that 66% of his foals never win!

Galileo stud record (click on progeny statistics)
 
Ron, re the 1 star saddo if you want to look into who it is for your own interest do go ahead. I'm not bothered by it, whoever it is obviously leads a sad existence if they are so intent on stalking my threads!
 
Ron don't waste your time mate <ok>. Not that it is me or anything <laugh>. PN don't be bothered by them the majority are very grateful for your time answering our questions
 
After some research here is a random selection of top class fillies and their later produce records:

SOVIET SONG – 5 time G1 winner, to stud 2007

2008 – barren to Galileo
2009 – SOVIET DREAM (Oasis Dream) unraced
2010 – early abortion to Raven’s Pass
2011 – barren to Oasis Dream
2012 – barren to Oasis Dream


OUIJA BOARD – 7 time G1 winner, to stud 2007

2008 – VOODOO PRINCE (Kingmambo) 1 win from 5 starts
2009 – AEGAEUS (Monsun) 0 wins from 3 starts
2010 – FILIA REGINA (Galileo) unraced
2011 – colt by Galileo
2012 – due to Dubawi


BANKS HILL – 3 time G1 winner, to stud 2003

2004 – OPTIONAL EXTRA (Kingmambo) unraced
2005 – IDEAL WORLD (Kingmambo) 4 wins (2 Listed) from 11 starts
2006 – TROJAN QUEEN (Empire Maker) 0 wins from 5 starts
2007 – barren
2008 – colt by Giant’s Causeway, unraced
2009 – ROMANTICA (Galileo) 1 win from 3 starts, G3 placed
2010 – DUMFRIESSHIRE (Oasis Dream) unraced


ISLINGTON – 4 time G1 winner, to stud 2004

2005 – LONDON BID (Rainbow Quest) 0 wins from 2 starts
2006 – ISLA CANELA (Gone West) 1 win from 4 starts
2007 – barren to unknown US stallion
2008 – barren to Kingmambo
2009 – STAR RATING (Dansili) unraced
2010 – BOHEMIAN DANCE (Dansili) unraced
2011 – filly by Dansili


RUSSIAN RHYTHM – 4 time G1 winner, to stud 2005

2006 – BARYNYA (Pivotal) 0 wins from 3 starts
2007 – SAFINA (Pivotal) 1 win from 4 starts
2008 – ZYKINA (Pivotal) unraced
2009 – barren to Oasis Dream
2010 – RUSSIAN REALM (Dansili)
2011 – slipped foal by Oasis Dream


OH SO SHARP – 3 time G1 winner (possibly 4 time, not sure if Fillies Mile was a G1 in 1984), to stud 1986

1987 – BEN ALISKY (Dunbeath) 1 win from 7 starts
1988 – SHAIMA (Shareef Dancer) 3 wins from 11 starts, G2 winner
1989 – ROSEFINCH (Blushing Groom) 2 wins from 7 starts, G1 winner
1990 – Devils Needle (Nureyev) unraced
1991 – filly by Danzig, unraced
1992 – FELITZA (Soviet Star) 2 wins from 3 starts
1993 – SACHO (Sadler’s Wells) 1 win from 11 starts, G3 placed
1994 – SHARPWITTED (Sadler’s Wells) 0 wins from 3 starts
1995 – OUTSPOKEN (Arazi) 4 wins from 15 starts
1996 – barren to Machiavellian
1997 – SAVOIRE VIVRE (Sadler’s Wells) 1 win from 3 starts. At stud in Australia
1998 – barren to Rainbow Quest
1999 – slipped foal by Silver Hawk
2000 – barren to Danehill
2001 – SUSSEX (Danehill) 0 wins from 1 start. At stud in India
Died 2001


PEBBLES – 5 time G1 winner, to stud 1987

1988 – PECHENGA (Nureyev) 1 win from 4 starts
1989 – PEBBLE CREEK (Reference Point) unraced
1990 – colt by Sadler’s Wells, unraced
1991 – PEBBLE POWDER (Nashwan) unraced
1992 – colt by Polish Precedent, unraced
1993 – KEBILI (Green Desert), unraced
1994 – Clarecastle (Caerleon) 0 wins from 4 starts
1995 – PERLA DI SASSO (Caerleon) 0 wins from 2 starts
1996 – not covered in 1995, sent to Japan
1997 – LEELOO (Dr Devious) unraced
1998 – SHADAI STONE (Real Shadai) unraced
1999 – no records found
2000 – SENLIS (Real Shadai) 7 wins from 37 starts
2001 – SEIUN MADONNA (Jade Robbery) unraced
Retired 2002, died 2005

As you can see, being a multiple G1 winning filly appears to be the kiss of death for her progeny. Things do not bode well for GOLDIKOVA and ZARKAVA!
 
No wonder I hadn't seen any Pebbles offsppring. Some good sires she went with. I wonder why they weren't raced and/or whether any of them were bred from. I did notice that one produced a foal by Mtoto. Looked good on paper but unsold as a yearling and no more news. Very sad.
 
Those that are unnamed are unlikely to have survived to go into training, for one reason or another. Sadly there is a high "wastage rate" with racehorses, a large number are just never good enough to make it to the track.
 
These are interesting lists of mares. It is extraordinary how really good fillies often turn out to be disappointing as mares. Oh So Sharp at least produced a Group 1 winner.

Islington (by the way I think in 2007 she had a dead foal by either Gone West or Kingmambo) has been particularly disappointing as she's from such a good winning family. The biggest disappointment is how few of her produce actually get to run at all, but it's only following on from her dam Hellenic's progeny, who also showed a distinct lack of ability to get to the races. Islington's full-sister Olympienne, who never ran, has had 4 foals of racing age, 3 of which have won and the other one died as a 3yo after a couple of juvenile placed efforts. I suppose if you asked what are the key criteria for a mare, you'd say (1) that she has foals and (2) that they get to the races. Islington and other mares in the list are distinct failures in that department. I almost fell over when I saw Bohemian Dancer (the current 2yo) was mentioned on the gallops a few week's back: but no further sightings there or in the entries.

As with Islington the Pebbles family keeps having successes but from other branches of the family. Fallen for You is the latest that traces back to Pebbles rootmare at the Royal Studs (they bred and raced Pebbles grand dam). This of course follows Ghanaati, Nayef etc.

As regards inbreeding I think you are right most tends to be 3X4 and these days that's into Northern Dancer. Coronation V is always cited as the example of what closer inbreeding can do. She was by a Tourbillon sire (Djebel) out of a Tourbillon mare (Esmeralda) and won the Queen Mary, Prix Robert Papin, French 1000Gns and the Arc de Triomphe (that's what I call flexibility). She was then quite infertile.

John Hislop, who went quite mad in his later years, sent Brigadier Gerard to his full-sister Lady Dacre. There was no produce.
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I have heard that really good race mares don't make good broodmares because they often have high levels of testosterone which affects the foal or something.
 
Maybe George. There has to be some correlation between high performance fillies/mares and their lack of success as brood mares.
 
Right. Could someone please give me a list of all 2yo and 3yo fillies that have high testosterone levels.
 
Princess, do you have access to the sale prices of foals/yearlings of Dancing Brave? I recall several years ago there was one for a ridiculously low price and we cursed because we missed it. Maybe the dam line wasn't too hot or it just looked poor at the sales; didn't look into it at the time. It would be interesting to know what it was and what happened to it. Is that possible to track down the cheapest ever DB foal/yearling.
 
The cheapest Dancing Brave I can find was a 13yo mare called ALL THE TIME, sold in 2005 in Newmarket for 1,500gns.

The cheapest yearling I can find was a yearling filly, later named OUR HOPE, who sold for 4,400gns at Doncaster in 1992 - to put that in perspective, his stud fee for 1990 (when that yearling was conceived) was about £80,000 <yikes>

If you follow this link, click on the "Sales Record" tab, you can enter your search criteria for his produce at the sales. I don't know how accurate it is, and it only goes back as far as 1991, his first crop were foals of 1988.
 
A great pity about DB. Looking at his pedigree, the dam line didn't look anything special.

An extract of his stud career (from Wikipedia)
"Dancing Brave was syndicated with an estimated value of £14m. He retired to stand as a stallion at the Dalham Hall Stud at Newmarket with an initial stud fee of £120,000. In November 1987 he was found to be suffering from Marie's disease and had fertility problems in 1988. His modest early success led to his being exported to Japan, to stand at the Shizunai Stallion Station at Hokkaid&#333; in 1991. He died on August 2, 1999 of a heart attack.
He sired numerous winners, having a particularly good crop of three-year-olds in 1993, foaled in the year before his export, including Commander in Chief, who won the Epsom Derby, and White Muzzle, second in both the King George VI and Queen Elizabeth Stakes and the Prix de l'Arc de Triomphe. Other good winners included Wemyss Bight (Irish Oaks) and Cherokee Rose (Sprint Cup). The best of his Japanese offspring was the filly T M Ocean who won the Oka Sho and the Shuka Sho in 2001"

On paper some of his offspring looked so cheap with foals out of mares by Mill Reef, Vaguely Noble, Sir Ivor, Habitat etc.

I'm pretty sure the one we saw was under 2000gns but it may have been a 2yo. Can't see it in the list so it was either before 1991 or my memory is failing me. My wife thought it was about 1200gns.

Thanks for the info.
 
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