Ask Princess - August 2012

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A question for you PNkt and the other knowledgeable guys and gals on here. What do you look out for when watching racing horses in the parade ring? I know you want to see a horse on its toes, so to speak, but not getting too worked up, but that is as far as my knowledge goes really and i'm sure there are a number of extra signs/clues I am missing.

Cheers,
Jeff
<ok>
 
Jeff, there are lots of things you can try to look out for, but a lot of the time you need to know what is "normal" for a particular horse. Some sweat up every time, others never, etc.

A general rule of thumb is to look for a horse that looks well in himself. Is his coat shiny, does he look well muscled? If he looks to have a bit of a pot belly he may be lacking in fitness.

On the toes is good for a sprinter but not so good for a stayer!

Sometimes it is just about what takes your eye. I've lost count of the times I have been taken by a horse in the paddock only to dismiss it on the basis of its odds, only to watch it romp home!
 
Hi PNkt,
Hope you might be able to help me with a question about a horse called Juniper Girl,
She was a bit of a favourite of mine after I saw her run at Salisbury, she was trained by
M. Bell and I guess she went to be a brood mare as she was reasonably talented and won connections a few quid.
Would you know if there have been any offspring and if so had any made it to the track?
Thanks.
 
Ifitjumps

Juniper Girl has one foal of racing age - a two year old gelding named FORCED FAMILY FUN, in training with Michael Bell. He made his debut a few weeks ago, finishing 7th.

She was barren to Selkirk in 2011 and produced a colt by Intikhab this year.
 
A coup for the French breeding industry. Top Australian sire REDOUTE'S CHOICE will reverse shuttle to France in 2013 where he will stand at a fee of &#8364;70,000 at the Aga Khan's Haras de Bonneville. This will make him by far and away the most expensive stallion in the country.

Redoute's Choice has been available for European breeders previously, though the mares had to travel to Australia to be covered in the Australian off-season (our spring). As a result he has had a small number of runners in Europe over the past few years, including:

ELZAAM (G2 placed at Royal Ascot)
TAZAHUM (G3 placed, Listed winner)
 
Pretty impressive pedigree. Almost as impressive as Harbinger's. I see Harbinger's stud fee is private. Wonder how much that is.
 
Good morning Princess:

It's possible you've answered this before, I know, but could you please tell me the exact difference between the race classifications 'Group' and 'Class', for flat-racing, that is. I note that 'Group' is never used to describe any NH race, where they always use the word 'Class'? The reason I ask is because I noticed that today's Ebor is classified as a 'Class 2' race (Class 2?). OK, it's still a handicap of course, and we do not classify any handicap in the 'Group' standard, unlike Australia who rightly describe the Melbourne Cup as 'Group-1' although it is , and always was, a handicap. This makes this race something of an oddity for European racegoers, and makes horseracing downunder very different from ours, race classification-wise, that is.
Many thanks...........SwanHills.
 
Good question that Swanny <ok>

Group races on the flat (and their equivalent over the jumps - Graded races) are governed by the pattern system and I found quite a good wiki article here

Handicaps are given a "class" rating - I remember this used to be A,B,C,D .......... a few years ago, now it is class 2-6 (I think, at least I can't remember seeing a class 1 handicap - I think class 1 is reserved for pattern races). I'm not exactly sure how the "class" of a race is defined - for handicaps it may be the ratings band the race covers (so for example the Ebor (class 2) today has horses rated from 96-109, whereas the 7.30 at Redcar tonight (class 6) has horses rated from 45-63).

But then it gets complicated because maidens and novice races and bumpers all have class ratings as well - no idea how that works, maybe purchase price of the horse??
 
http://www.allaboutbetting.co.uk/horseracing/handicapping.html

Flat racing has seven classes with class 1 being the highest grade and class 7 the lowest. The classes are broken down as follows,

Class 1 Listed Handicaps 96-110+

Class 2 Heritage Handicaps, Handicaps of 86-100, 91-105 and 96-110 and Classified Stakes 0-95

Class 3 Handicaps 76-90 and 81-95 and Classified Stakes 0-85 and 0-90

Class 4 Handicaps 66-80 and 71-85

Class 5 Handicaps 56-70 and 61-75

Class 6 Handicaps 46-60 and 51-65

Class 7 Classified Stakes 0-45

There are also Nursery races which are handicaps for 2 years olds and Maiden handicaps which are for horses aged 3 or over who have never won, have run at least four times and who have a maximum rating of 70.

Jumps racing has six classes with class 1 being the highest and class 6 being the lowest. These are broken down as follows,

Class 1 Pattern (Group 1,2 and 3) and Listed races

Class 2 Open Handicaps and Handicaps 0-140+

Class 3 Handicaps 0-120 and 0-135 and Novice Handicaps 0-120 and 0-135

Class 4 Handicaps 0-100 and 0-115 and Novice Handicaps 0-100 and 0-115

Class 5 Handicaps 0-85 and 0-95 and Novice Handicaps 0-85 and 0-95

Class 6 National Hunt Flat Races and Hunter's Steeplechases
 
Understanding Quantum Physics in a parallel universe sounds easier to get your head around...!!!

Thanks Oddy, i think i get what your saying...<ok>

But as usual its a different rules in one country compared to another... Maybe Black Caviar was entered into the wrong race...<whistle>
 
Oddy: Many thanks indeed, my goodness that gets a bit complicated. A lifetime of a very real interest in horseracing (when I had the time, that is) and now, at this late juncture, I find that I virtually know nothing! ......<doh>......<laugh>
Thanks again!

Red: I think Black Caviar is a great racing mare too. I was, with just about everyone else, pretty damn harsh on Luke Nolen for the ride he gave her in the Diamond Jubilee. Now I eat a bit of humble pie as yesterday I stumbled on a little clip of him speaking about the race back home in Australia. He was so straightforward, he said it was the worst ride he had ever given a horse, and that Black Caviar herself pulled him out of an absolute disaster with one final renewed thrust on the line to prevail over the two French sprinters. He said that during the race he felt that the mare was not her usual self (guess he, of all people, should know?) and that he was ultra-easy on her. Nolen admitted he was shocked out of his skin when the two French horses loomed up right at the death. The gutsy mare saved him from a total catastrophe. Not a bad lad, really.

Good luck today, BTW!
 
Jongleur said:
Oddy: Many thanks indeed, my goodness that gets a bit complicated. A lifetime of a very real interest in horseracing (when I had the time, that is) and now, at this late juncture, I find that I virtually know nothing! ......<doh>......<laugh>
Thanks again! Head feels thicker than usual this morning, did the walk by the Tegernsee lake yesterday, then we all jumped into a little motorboat (electric) and chugged around the lake, all before adjourning to the brewery tavern. So cool after the recent hot spell, but was glad I did not fall in. Then the beers........Bratwürste.........roast spuds. That's "rilly livin'" for me; the simple things in life are the best! <double>

Red: I think Black Caviar is a great racing mare too. I was, with just about everyone else, pretty damn harsh on Luke Nolen for the ride he gave her in the Diamond Jubilee. Now I eat a bit of humble pie as yesterday I stumbled on a little clip of him speaking about the race back home in Australia. He was so straightforward, he said it was the worst ride he had ever given a horse, and that Black Caviar herself pulled him out of an absolute disaster with one final renewed thrust on the line to prevail over the two French sprinters. He said that during the race he felt that the mare was not her usual self (guess he, of all people, should know?) and that he was ultra-easy on her. Nolen admitted he was shocked out of his skin when the two French horses loomed up right at the death. The gutsy mare saved him from a total catastrophe. Not a bad lad, really.

Good luck today, BTW!
Click to expand...

I think you're being a bit harsh on yourself actually - nobody was really that bad about Luke Nolen at the time and it was really just the shock of what happened. As soon as he was interviewed everyone wound their opinions down a little anyway.

If I may, I have a question for Princess Newmarket about prize money. It was my understanding that if a horse wins Group 1 sprints in 3 different countries they qualify for a 1 million bonus. If that is true, do you think we will be seeing the absolutely wonderful Ortensia in the Prix de L'Abbaye in October? That would be a sight to behold.
 
Dan: You're right, it's good that it has blown over, water under the bridge. Glad she wasn't beaten, really am, as she did not deserve that, especially if there were legitimate questions on her fitness at the time? Seems she might race again, connections being a bit cagey at the moment?
 
Jongleur said:
Dan: You're right, it's good that it has blown over, water under the bridge. Glad she wasn't beaten, really am, as she did not deserve that, especially if there were legitimate questions on her fitness at the time? Seems she might race again, connections being a bit cagey at the moment?
Click to expand...


The whole Royal meeting would have gione very flat indeed had she been beaten. Clearly she's an awesome horse and connections still deserve credit for brining her over out of season and in very foreign conditions for her.

I hope she races again but quite frankly would not blame the connections of they did not try again. I had the immense privilege of watching Frankel at york on Wednesday - I can't bear to think what it would have been like if he'd been beaten and I wouldn't really blame Khaled Abdullah if he bricked it and never raced him again - for him to lose now would be unbearable and it's the same with Black caviar.
 
I see others have already explained the "Class" system for British Racing. Basically, all Group and Listed races are Class 1. The higher the Class number (5, 6, 7) the worse the quality of race. Oddly gave a pretty good indicator of the types of races within the Class system, though left out the maidens and sellers/claimers.
Maidens can be anything from Class 2 to Class 6, whereas sellers/claimers tend to be Class 5-7.

The purpose of the Class is to give an indicator as to the amount of prize money on offer (the better the class, the better the money) and also for handicapping purposes. So a winner of a Class 2 maiden will be put up higher than a winner of a Class 5 maiden.

Quite often in the race conditions for something like a Novice race, you will wording along the lines of "Penalties: winner of a Class 3 5lb, Class 4 3lb, Class 5 2lb"
 
Many thanks PNkt! A bit complicated, but I have a much better idea of it all now than before. I am in turn answering questions from a non-racing Australian friend who came up with a real pearl, after I sent him a video clip of Frankel's Juddmonte victory (my friend lives in Thailand). He said, well sooner or later they'll handicap him to the hilt and he'll lose! Had to tell him that there was no such thing as a Group handicap up here. Guess he was remembering the Phar Lap film when, before his second attempt to win the Melbourne Cup, the Victoria Racing Club handicapper gave him over 10-stone to carry, I believe. The ghostly boos after the race (directed at the haughty stewards of the VRC) can still be heard on a dark and frosty night at Flemington, so I understand! :biggrin:

Horseracing downunder, from a race classification standpoint, can at times be quite different from racing in Europe, for sure. <ok>
 
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