Ask PN - October 2011
- Thread starter Ron
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I've started an index for Sales threads. Just the one queried for now but can add others later,
The Horse Racing Forum Index
The Horse Racing Forum Index
Princess, I've noticed a bit of heated debate about the merits of Goldikova's 14 G1 successes as the 5 of Dream Ahead. While this type of belittling of an animals record disgusts me, it also drew me into having a look at the great mares race record. It was most interesting, but what grabbed the most was her breeding. This side of the game is something I know very little about, so I thought that, with your kind permission, I'd chase down your thoughts on the subject, as you've worked in the field.
I was amazed to find double crosses of two horses, that reached back only three generations. (Northern Dancer and Riverman.) Added to this, both Nearctic and Nashrulla are by Nearco. It all seem amazingly close. I can't help but feel that if people bred along these lines, it wouldn't be too healthy. Can I please have your views on whether Goldikova is too closely bred and whether this is standard practice in the industry? Thank you.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goldikova
P.S. Another amazing thing I found, was that Frankel's dam, Kind, is by Danehill, who's dam was sired on his mum's side, by a grandson of the great Hyperion. It all sounds rather convoluted. But to see Hyperion, a horse once thought of as the greatest of all time, now connected to a real star of today, is a head turner. Frankel is assured of star billing at stud of course, and I don't suppose they will get too far away from proven Northern Dancer crosses, but do you think they'll pay much attention to Hyperion?
I was amazed to find double crosses of two horses, that reached back only three generations. (Northern Dancer and Riverman.) Added to this, both Nearctic and Nashrulla are by Nearco. It all seem amazingly close. I can't help but feel that if people bred along these lines, it wouldn't be too healthy. Can I please have your views on whether Goldikova is too closely bred and whether this is standard practice in the industry? Thank you.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goldikova
P.S. Another amazing thing I found, was that Frankel's dam, Kind, is by Danehill, who's dam was sired on his mum's side, by a grandson of the great Hyperion. It all sounds rather convoluted. But to see Hyperion, a horse once thought of as the greatest of all time, now connected to a real star of today, is a head turner. Frankel is assured of star billing at stud of course, and I don't suppose they will get too far away from proven Northern Dancer crosses, but do you think they'll pay much attention to Hyperion?
Inbreeding is pretty common these days and it is not unusual to see a horse inbred as close as the third generation of their pedigree. If you use the pedigreequery.com website it is very useful as it colour codes the inbreeding for you.
For example, in Frankel's pedigree - http://www.pedigreequery.com/frankel3 - you can see easily that Northern Dancer appears in the 4th and 5th generations of his pedigree on both sides; Buckpasser appears twice in the 6th generation on both sides and Natalma (dam of ND) appears three times, once on his sire's side and twice on his dam's side.
As far as the Hyperion in his pedigree is concerned, I think that it is so far back in the bloodline that they probably will not pay much attention to it.
As a demonstration of close inbreeding, you may or may not have heard about the number of Galileo mares that were sent to Sea the Stars last year. The resulting foals will be heavily inbred to Urban Sea with her appearing in the third generation on the sire's side (as dam of Sea the Stars) and in the 4th generation on the dam's side (being the dam of Galileo)!
In the Arabian breeding world it was not unheard of, many years ago, to breed father to daughter as they believed it would strengthen the bloodline. The fact that the Arabian is the oldest surviving horse breed means they may have had a point!
For example, in Frankel's pedigree - http://www.pedigreequery.com/frankel3 - you can see easily that Northern Dancer appears in the 4th and 5th generations of his pedigree on both sides; Buckpasser appears twice in the 6th generation on both sides and Natalma (dam of ND) appears three times, once on his sire's side and twice on his dam's side.
As far as the Hyperion in his pedigree is concerned, I think that it is so far back in the bloodline that they probably will not pay much attention to it.
As a demonstration of close inbreeding, you may or may not have heard about the number of Galileo mares that were sent to Sea the Stars last year. The resulting foals will be heavily inbred to Urban Sea with her appearing in the third generation on the sire's side (as dam of Sea the Stars) and in the 4th generation on the dam's side (being the dam of Galileo)!
In the Arabian breeding world it was not unheard of, many years ago, to breed father to daughter as they believed it would strengthen the bloodline. The fact that the Arabian is the oldest surviving horse breed means they may have had a point!
Marcel Boussac was a great breeder of racehorses and bred many great ones. He was a great believer in Tourbillon as a sire. A book always worth reading is the Sir Charles Leicester opus on Throughbred Breeding in which he discusses the plusses and minuses as far as he saw of inbreeding. The example for the against camp he uses is the great filly Coronation V. She won for Boussac the Queen Mary Stakes, the Prix Robert Papin, the Criterium des Pouliches (French 1000G) and the 1949 Arc de Triomphe in her two year career. She was by Djebel (by Tourbillon) out of Esmeralda (by Tourbillon). She obviously wasn't a bad racehorse!! But she was totally barren.
pN is there anything more recent than this or anything you know that points to the possible problems of close in-breeding?
pN is there anything more recent than this or anything you know that points to the possible problems of close in-breeding?
Obviously the 2 X 3 inbreeding to Urban Sea you mention above isn't as close as the inbreeding in Coronation but the fact that the produce will also be 4 x 5 inbred to Northern Dancer means there are markedly less great, great, great ,great grandanparents than you normally have. An interesting experiment.
I know I've said this before Princess (probably on the old 606) but it's interesting how inbreeding is not distinguished from line breeding as it is in the dog world.
Here is an article I found that may be of interest to some of our readers
and here is a very brief summary (copyright)
Neither are breeds I'm interested in but the theory is the same through all species.
Here is an article I found that may be of interest to some of our readers
and here is a very brief summary (copyright)
Neither are breeds I'm interested in but the theory is the same through all species.
Amazing stuff Ron, thanks for the links on breeding. What an eye opener. It seems to me that breeding must be more than just looking at charts and race records, it must also be about the temperament and physical make up of the ancestors. It would be easily possible for a bad genetic trait to be hidden by not having a least a partial knowledge of the animals concerned.
I found the theories of close inbreeding very interesting. Although not recommended to the amateur breeder, it made some hints that there could be some solid reasoning to go down this road. Son to daughter, son to sister or mother, cousin to cousin etc, seem to offer up some short cuts to desired results. Of course as the gene pool is so close, the risk of a phenotype corruption is increased if the line is tainted. The theory seemed to to hint as I said, that if the inbreeding a long term undertaking, then bad traits could be bred out. For all of that though, it seems to go against everything we think as a given. Don't marry ya' cousin, or you'll be concidered a hillbilly.
I found the theories of close inbreeding very interesting. Although not recommended to the amateur breeder, it made some hints that there could be some solid reasoning to go down this road. Son to daughter, son to sister or mother, cousin to cousin etc, seem to offer up some short cuts to desired results. Of course as the gene pool is so close, the risk of a phenotype corruption is increased if the line is tainted. The theory seemed to to hint as I said, that if the inbreeding a long term undertaking, then bad traits could be bred out. For all of that though, it seems to go against everything we think as a given. Don't marry ya' cousin, or you'll be concidered a hillbilly.
Interesting articles Ron
I've just had a quick look at the pedigrees of the Middle Park winner Crusade, and the Dewhurst winner Parish Hall.
Crusade has several crosses to Mr Prospector (and even more to Native Dancer). However the really interesting thing is you have to go back to the 6th generation to find Northern Dancer appearing!
By complete contrast Parish Hall has 4 crosses to Northern Dancer in his first 5 generations.
I've just had a quick look at the pedigrees of the Middle Park winner Crusade, and the Dewhurst winner Parish Hall.
Crusade has several crosses to Mr Prospector (and even more to Native Dancer). However the really interesting thing is you have to go back to the 6th generation to find Northern Dancer appearing!
By complete contrast Parish Hall has 4 crosses to Northern Dancer in his first 5 generations.
OK folks, here's the chance to belt good old fantastic, adorable and and all round genius cyc. As the archetypal husband, I often find myself at the beck and call of my darling wife. This being so, I sometimes find that I'm expected to accompany the light of my life on shopping trips. I can see how the average reader would find this a bit of a chore, and I have to confess that I almost always find it so. But I'm not alone, there is ample proof of this. Shopping centres are filled with gentlemen sitting on bench seats outside shops. They are not there because it's the highlight of their day, they are there awaiting the emergence of a loved one from a store. A man cannot sit and do nothing, if all else fails, he falls back on his analytical brain. Maybe it's philosophy, maybe it's line breeding. This free time in the shopping centres allows the male to delve into the mysteries of life. It's here that I have to put up my hand and admit to being exponent of the breeding process.
In my long and tireless study of how genetic influence is passed on from one generation to the next, I discovered that the average human being is an extremely poor specimen. Evolution has allowed the creatures of the world to reach a status where by they are most proficient at survival. They can't reason like a human being, so to survive, they must be at the cutting edge of evolution. Some have magnificent vision, others a wonderful sense of smell. Some can run like the wind, while others soar in it. But we don't need any of those talents, we've developed a brain that has allowed us to out wit all other life forms. We got to the top of the tree through our sense of reason. This however has given us the luxury of down grading our physical attributes, because we know that we can rely on brain matter. So what has this to do with race horse breeding? Well, being a shopping centre breeding expert, I've noticed that after exhaustive study, women often pass on their suspect legs and feet to the offspring. I've not bothered with the torso or head, I'm an expert in the lower limbs. Flat feet breed flat feet, in turned ankles breed in turned ankles. Bowed legs lead to bowed legs. What does all this mean to breeding thoroughbred race horses. Mum carries a huge influence on the foal. Breeding results of past generations of course are very important, but so is physical conformation. Give me a well conformed collossus with strong sound limbs everytime. And that goes for horses as well.
In my long and tireless study of how genetic influence is passed on from one generation to the next, I discovered that the average human being is an extremely poor specimen. Evolution has allowed the creatures of the world to reach a status where by they are most proficient at survival. They can't reason like a human being, so to survive, they must be at the cutting edge of evolution. Some have magnificent vision, others a wonderful sense of smell. Some can run like the wind, while others soar in it. But we don't need any of those talents, we've developed a brain that has allowed us to out wit all other life forms. We got to the top of the tree through our sense of reason. This however has given us the luxury of down grading our physical attributes, because we know that we can rely on brain matter. So what has this to do with race horse breeding? Well, being a shopping centre breeding expert, I've noticed that after exhaustive study, women often pass on their suspect legs and feet to the offspring. I've not bothered with the torso or head, I'm an expert in the lower limbs. Flat feet breed flat feet, in turned ankles breed in turned ankles. Bowed legs lead to bowed legs. What does all this mean to breeding thoroughbred race horses. Mum carries a huge influence on the foal. Breeding results of past generations of course are very important, but so is physical conformation. Give me a well conformed collossus with strong sound limbs everytime. And that goes for horses as well.
Cyc if you get a chance have a look at the film "Idiocracy" - very funny and relevant to your post 
and as the germans say "Zehn - vier"
I've just read the review on the movie Oddy, seems like a good idea for a film. Looks like it's become a cult movie.
Just reposting some answers to questions that were posted on another thread, they may have also occured to others:
1/How many fillies/mares do Galileo and Street Cry cover in a season.
In 2010 Galileo covered 177 mares. The 2011 figures won’t be out for a few months.
In 2010 Street Cry covered 159 mares. The 2011 US Report of Mares Bred is due in the next few weeks.
2/How many of these are in house for Coolmore/Godolphin fillies/mares.
It is hard to tell to be honest. The US do not release lists of individual mares covered, as we do in GB and Ireland. Looking at what I have on my database at work, of the 131 registered foals by Street Cry born in 2010, 76 were either bred by or are now owned by Darley, with a further 8 bred/owned by Shadwell.
As for Galileo, looking at the list of mares, and their owners, who produced foals in 2010 (140 foals), at least 59 were bred by Coolmore and their associates (they trade under literally dozens of different names, probably for tax reasons!)
3/How many foals/yearlings do they buy back privately or at auction.
Again it is hard to know, looking at this year’s sales results from Keeneland (where most of the Street Cry’s will have been sold) 56 Street Cry’s were offered for sale, 6 were bought by John Ferguson for Darley. 11 of these 56 failed to reach their reserve price, so it is possible that deals will have been done behind the scenes.
Of the Galileo’s offered at yearling sales so far this year (53), only 5 have been bought by Coolmore.
3/What at a guesstimate are their respective fees.
Galileo is advertised as “Private” but rumour puts it around the €175,000 mark. When Sadler’s Wells was “Private”, his fee was about IR£250,000, but the days of those kind of fees are behind us.
Street Cry is advertised at $150,000 stand and nurses (which means the fee is only payable once a live and viable foal has been born)
4/Would it ever be viable, or was even considered to shuttle them.
Street Cry shuttles to Darley’s Australian farm standing for AUS$110,000.
Galileo used to shuttle to Coolmore’s Australian farm, but has not done so for a few years. Probably because of the health problems he has suffered (several bouts of colic) which would make him too high a risk to put on a plane for 24 hours.
5/Is it a currently a high risk for a breeder/agent patronising Galileo, given his fee(must be considerable) in the current market...aside from the Pearl fella's!
The way his progeny are selling at the moment, no! Stallions like Galileo will be massively oversubscribed for mares, they will probably have had 300-400 mares making applications to visit the horse so they will have been able to pick and choose the best.
To consider having turned a profit on a horse you need to take the stud fee + £10,000 (keep costs up to yearling sales) away from the sales price. So any Galileo's selling for more than about €185,000 have made a profit.
You do have to bear in mind that many stud farms do deals on their fees, so the advertised price is very often not the price that is actually paid. Common deals include discounts for G1 winners/dams of G1 winners or send more than 3 mares and get a % off the fee, etc.
6/Who exactly are Pearl Bloodstock, aside from a breeders dream at present!
They are Sheikh Fahad al Thani, the man behind Qipqo, sponsors of the Champions Series. He is depressingly young (late 20s) and rich. More on him here: http://www.ownerbreeder.co.uk/2011/0...ening-success/
One last thing, Shamardal, my fav, has been very quiet this year re 2-y-o's, any reason?
I’m not aware of any particular reason, some stallions just have quiet spells.
1/How many fillies/mares do Galileo and Street Cry cover in a season.
In 2010 Galileo covered 177 mares. The 2011 figures won’t be out for a few months.
In 2010 Street Cry covered 159 mares. The 2011 US Report of Mares Bred is due in the next few weeks.
2/How many of these are in house for Coolmore/Godolphin fillies/mares.
It is hard to tell to be honest. The US do not release lists of individual mares covered, as we do in GB and Ireland. Looking at what I have on my database at work, of the 131 registered foals by Street Cry born in 2010, 76 were either bred by or are now owned by Darley, with a further 8 bred/owned by Shadwell.
As for Galileo, looking at the list of mares, and their owners, who produced foals in 2010 (140 foals), at least 59 were bred by Coolmore and their associates (they trade under literally dozens of different names, probably for tax reasons!)
3/How many foals/yearlings do they buy back privately or at auction.
Again it is hard to know, looking at this year’s sales results from Keeneland (where most of the Street Cry’s will have been sold) 56 Street Cry’s were offered for sale, 6 were bought by John Ferguson for Darley. 11 of these 56 failed to reach their reserve price, so it is possible that deals will have been done behind the scenes.
Of the Galileo’s offered at yearling sales so far this year (53), only 5 have been bought by Coolmore.
3/What at a guesstimate are their respective fees.
Galileo is advertised as “Private” but rumour puts it around the €175,000 mark. When Sadler’s Wells was “Private”, his fee was about IR£250,000, but the days of those kind of fees are behind us.
Street Cry is advertised at $150,000 stand and nurses (which means the fee is only payable once a live and viable foal has been born)
4/Would it ever be viable, or was even considered to shuttle them.
Street Cry shuttles to Darley’s Australian farm standing for AUS$110,000.
Galileo used to shuttle to Coolmore’s Australian farm, but has not done so for a few years. Probably because of the health problems he has suffered (several bouts of colic) which would make him too high a risk to put on a plane for 24 hours.
5/Is it a currently a high risk for a breeder/agent patronising Galileo, given his fee(must be considerable) in the current market...aside from the Pearl fella's!
The way his progeny are selling at the moment, no! Stallions like Galileo will be massively oversubscribed for mares, they will probably have had 300-400 mares making applications to visit the horse so they will have been able to pick and choose the best.
To consider having turned a profit on a horse you need to take the stud fee + £10,000 (keep costs up to yearling sales) away from the sales price. So any Galileo's selling for more than about €185,000 have made a profit.
You do have to bear in mind that many stud farms do deals on their fees, so the advertised price is very often not the price that is actually paid. Common deals include discounts for G1 winners/dams of G1 winners or send more than 3 mares and get a % off the fee, etc.
6/Who exactly are Pearl Bloodstock, aside from a breeders dream at present!
They are Sheikh Fahad al Thani, the man behind Qipqo, sponsors of the Champions Series. He is depressingly young (late 20s) and rich. More on him here: http://www.ownerbreeder.co.uk/2011/0...ening-success/
One last thing, Shamardal, my fav, has been very quiet this year re 2-y-o's, any reason?
I’m not aware of any particular reason, some stallions just have quiet spells.