But if they're not good enough to play regularly at say Norwich(no offence to Norwich), then what value are they in our squad? I know there was Falque at Soton who ended up wasting his time not playing there, that comes down to making sure we get the players out on loan to the right clubs and we seem to be building up some decent connections with clubs for that purpose. Rose, Carroll and Townsend are the only ones I could see playing apart in our squad next season but as I've said, I'd quite like Carroll in particular to go out on loan to get some regular Premier League games as he hasn't had that. If Townsend continues to impress on loan then there will certainly be a place for him and Rose will be down to whether he wants to stay and be back up for Benny and whether AVB would rather sell him and spend the cash elsewhere. Villa seem like the ideal club to send players to for next season, Lambert's fully prepared to give youngsters a go and their financial position means that they will need to bring in loan players once again and if QPR stay up I can't see 'Arry wanting or needing loan players again.
Carroll is being judged on what hes done, not just this season but in previous and his current ability to effect games isnt based around potential, its about what he can already offer. What caroll offers, is current ability that the team is missing, which is why regardless of age, he can offer more then certain players, as while we cant compare like for like, there are players that offer no benefit to the team, other then being names to fill the team sheet. Anyway Avb has taken the decision not to use him more, thats his decision, doesnt make it the best one as i think its obvious carroll should have played more. However thats just a view I (and others take) and carroll will make it as a player regardless and next season i believe it will be an important one for Tom to be given more chances.
Maybe you misunderstood my point but the worry about players not playing on loan wasnt that their not good enough ( as in carrolls case if he went out on loan) but clubs messing players about, which does happen like you mention. Also yes finding the right club is vital, like the cases with cleverley and wiltshire. Carroll has shown what he can bring to the squad and ill be surprised if he went out on loà n anyway, as if that was to have happened, this year would have been the ideal time.
Yeah I know what you're saying but if we sent him to a club that we can trust to give him opportunities to prove himself and he doesn't end up establishing himself then he wouldn't be much use to us either. I don't think we can get carried away with Carroll, he looked quality at times in the Europa League, like against Hearts, but I didn't see him making any great impact in games where we struggled. I feel it's not dissimilar this year too, a player with a lot of energy and some pace can come in and cause a few problems from the bench but it doesn't mean they could start and make the same impact, Holby's proof of this. I'm not sure Wilshere was particularly suited to Bolton at the time but it got him out on the pitch, built his confidence and allowed him the opportunity to work on his style of play to make good in the Premier League. Taarabt was a player that never altered his style of play for the Premier League and that meant unless he was much better than the defenders he was up against he gets nowhere in a game. That was masked with us as he generally only put in the odd sub appearance or start against weaker sides which left a very good impression with the fans but didn't mean he was ready to start for us. I also think youngsters tend to struggle after an initial bright start as teams start to take more note of them. I can't think of a youngster who's gone from strength to strength every year and in my view that's in no small part down to the opposition's increased awareness of their abilities and weaknesses and the youngster not knowing how to cope with that. Remember how devastating Lennon was when he burst onto the scene for us? Then defenders realised they could stand off him and cover the flank, showing him inside, and it's taken him years to become consistent because whilst he could still get the better of defenders at times he's not been able to take advantage of being allowed to cut inside. I do agree with you that we need someone to move the ball quickly and look to make things happen in our team as Dembele isn't able to do that by himself every game but I'd rather we put our faith in Holtby than Carroll for now. I do agree that he should've been played more too* but for right now we don't have points to drop so I'd side with more experienced players who have come up against many different opponents at a top proffessional level. *particularly in the Europa groups although I think he was injured
Personally I'd like to see Carroll loaned out to Swansea if he's to go anywhere and if they'll take him, Caulker hugely benefited from his run in their team and they play in a style that is more likely to suit Carroll and see him get games than, say, Stoke.
Am not asking anyone to get carried away, and I certainty don't believe I am, I just have great faith in what Carroll can offer, and am not wanting to suggest everyone has to share that view so of course I completely understand if you don't believe he can make much of an impact (although I don't agree). Of course this is all difficult to prove, as until Carroll is given a proper chance, its up for discussion as in what is the best decision, or what he can (or can't bring), its a classic "only time will tell" what is right. As for Wiltshire, the manager at bolton was important, maybe more then their style of play, as Owen Coyle believed in the player and wanted him, which is equally as important as finding the right club in terms of style. Loan moves are tricky these days, but when finding the right club, they can be of great benefit to a player progressing, as we are seeing with another young player I (we) rate, in Townsend.
Getting first team experience in the PL toughens players up. They get used to the pace and physicality of the game. In the case of SAF, I think he only loans players to other PL clubs if he knows they are going to make it and wants to accelerate their development, but knows their opportunities will be limited in the first team at the club. It seems to have paid dividends with Cleverley and Welbeck- the jury is out with Fabio. When players go to teams from lower leagues, few return and become first team players. It's last chance saloon for those players. Carroll needs experience in the PL before he has any chance of a first team place. He's not going to oust Dembele or Sandro (if fit), but he would get games at Wigan or Norwich.
Its not so much about ousting, and am not not claiming he should be playing each week, its more about using a players ability at the right moment and Carroll is a player that could compliment Sandro & Dembele in the same line up. It's very easy to dismiss a young player and say "he needs this" "he's not ready" "lets take our time" and that is the safe option to take, yet it doesn't mean its always the right option and from what I have seen of Carroll, he has proven he makes an impact when called upon and this because his natural ability shines through, mainly because the team needs what he offers. Of course this doesn't mean he should play every week, but definitely he should be used more. Also for the players development (like you mention) game time is of course important, so going back to the loan, if a club such as norwich or wigan made a point to ask about Carroll (as they rated him highly) then a short term loan, even a season loan could well be a great way for Carroll to prove himself,
Apologies, I didn't meant to suggest you were getting carried away, having looked back that's exactly what I said though Perhaps you're right with Coyle and I was saying similar about Lambert and Villa, the style I was referring to was the individual's and how they adapt to the Premier League. I don't think time will tell as with most disagreements we'll both walk away believing we're right and unless Carroll is given a run of starts in the team this season then we'll never know. No doubt Carroll will end up coming off the bench in another game, score a winner and we'll still both end up feeling vindicated
Boss, we talk often about the need to rotate, but your key players are still going to play 80-90% of the games and being "rested" often means being on the bench in case needed. Central midfield is a vital area; many teams are reliant on the ability of midfielders to control the game. Spurs play better with Dembele in the centre; Modric was a certainty to play there last season. Carrick, Silva, Gerrard etc are rarely left out. So if Carroll is going to get the games he needs to develop from promising young player to a start in the first team, I think a season's loan at a lesser PL team- where he has the chance to shine as that pivotal player- is the way forward for him.
If Carroll goes onto become a top player and looks back at this and believes this was the right move then no worries admitting AVB got it right, although yes currently we will both walk away thinking we're right!! Of course is always tricky being 100% confident in a young player, as I'm sure every single one of us has rated a young player highly before, only to be let down by his progress, which I know is why you mentioned about getting carried away, as there are certain parts of a players career/stages when he either lives up to his potential, or fades away and its a real struggle to recover if they go through a bad period.
I see the positives in a loan move, no question about that. However like I said before, we would need a manager to want/believe in the player, otherwise Carroll can still progress at the current rate, just at a slower rate. When he came on agaisnt Fulham, he proved he can make an impact and I know I said this before, but its because the team needs his type of ability, and its not the first time he has proved this when being called upon.
Its clear to see TC likes to pass, but I think his physicality may well be tested the more PL sides get to see of him, some say 'well Modric was/is diminutive', well Modric has the ability to burst through and past players and I'm not sure I've seen too much of that from Tom. We need to see what answers he's got when an opponent is told to stay tight to him, giving him a Robbie Savage type player to deal with for 90, and there's plenty of current successors to his style. I think we need to see if he can be made to disappear in games and how he'd deal with close attention. I don't know the full story on his loan period in the Championship at Derby, but it doesn't read that well, used regularly when he joined they went on a poor run, after a dozen games he was replaced by another player and Deby's form picked up. Not suggesting it was his sole fault, thats what i meant by not knowing the full story, the whole team may have been having a mare, he may have been out of position, don't know, maybe if Spurcat reads this he could help. I might be wrong, but i think when I've seen him he's almost been allowed to play his game. I think he's very good prospect, and how his next year is handled is crucial.
Fair point about the loan at derby, but just as a side example, Townsend has had 8 loan spells before his time at QPR, did he impress in every single one? fair play to the lad if he did but I''be surprised if thats the case, so I get what you're possibly saying about Carroll not impressing at Derby, but I know Tim Sherwood rates him very highly and possibly the loan moves came at the wrong stage of the lads career or the team simply didn't suit his style.
Precisely why I said about not knowing the full story, as you're aware there's a number of reasons why loans don't quite work, and I don't see the point of speculating anymore here, like I said I'm not in a position to comment on his time at Derby as I didn't follow it myself. Don't get me wrong, I don't doubt his contribution with a ball at his feet, seen enough to know he's very comfortable with that, its the rest of the game we need a few more answers on, eg. contribution when we don't have the ball.
