Would you sacrifice success in order to favor a team of English players perhaps not as good as their foreign counterpart? Just curious.
Ponders, similarly to you I don't fear such labels, but I feel that at times people can lose sight of what football is all about, the bigotry and xenephobia I refer to are, for example, groups such as the EDL who promote 'English Pride' but in reality are just small-minded, racists thugs, the Nazi party whose true motives were hidden behind a will for a unified German identity, or the aforementioned example of the French Football Association, who wished to limit the numbers of youngsters of Arab and African decent to 20% in their national youth academy. If a similar approach had been in place in England, we wouldn't have seen the likes of Lloyd Sam, Jamahl Campbell-Ryce and Richard Rufus come through our academy, nor would the England team possibly contain the likes of Jermaine Defoe, Theo Walcott or Sol Campbell. As for us bringing in foreign players rather than training our own (whilst in the Prem), youth development is a very long process, it takes years to develop youngsters so that they will be ready for first team football (let alone Premier League football), and in failing to secure International talent and instead relying on youth, we could have been relegated far sooner than we were. That being said, as Super' pointed out, our academy developed some very fine players in those glory years. The comparison between Messi and Perkins was intentionally focusing on their ability, why rely on an English player who has come through the academy if we could sign a foreign player who is much better? Football is sadly results business, and though I love to see players play who I can identify with and be proud of, results are the most important thing.
In answer to SuperC, In the short term, yes. Because I truly do believe that we can create enough talent in this country to hold our own on the world stage. Players like Jack Wilshere, Ashley Young and Steven Gerrard prove that we have world-class players. But how great it would be to churn out more home-grown talent and win the biggest prizes at international level. At club level I want to see more Parkers, Koncheskys and Rufuses. Is that a bad thing? If all I wanted was to support a team of foreign players then I would support the Spanish national team. But no, I support Charlton and dream that England will win the World Cup one day. That would be the greatest boon to our national game and vindication that we truly do have the talent in this country. Again, looking at our industries, would it not be better that we build more cars, motorbikes, light bulbs etc etc in this country rather than giving work to foreign labour? Or is it bigoted to believe that we should protect and aid our own workforce and youngsters of the future? WWOCB, you mention such groups as the Nazi Party and EDL - and quite rightly too. But you fail to mention groups such as Liberty and the extreme muslim foundations who are intent on destroying English culture, Englsih heritage and our rights to be proud and forthright. The extreme left are as much to blame for people joining racist groups as the right are for allowing liberal fanatics to spread their divisive nonsense. It is those in the middle, like me, who suffer from it all.
Ponders, there is a difference between cars, motorbikes, lightbulbs, and football players. The reason we are urged to buy English is in order to support the English economy by trading in only British goods, yet as I demonstrated in an earlier post, signing better quality (if that at this point in time means foreign) players, leads to more fans attending games, making the British economy STRONGER not weaker. I'm not against an increase in English youth talent in the Football Leagues if the quality of youth-development system is of a higher standard, but as we have all said, its not as good as its European equivalents. Ponders, I am completely against radical right-wing groups who set out to destroy the identity and culture of other countries, in fact, I'm completely against the British and American governments invasions of various middle-east countries. I believe no countries have the right to alter the attitudes, values and beliefs of another culture, and in some ways I believe that mass-migration can be a problem for societies - only in the sense that in leaving your country to enter another, it is very difficult to embrace your new countries values and cultural-norms. This can be problematic for example, when a middle-eastern or african family attempt to raise their children in England, but wish for them to respect their roots, whilst also embracing their new culture. I will not get too deep into my political and philosophical ideals as this is a football forum
Oh, but I can debate the subject of immigration, economics and the need for decent English talent until the cows come home. Once again, you deem it correct to plug a hole with foreign workers (footballers) to the detriment of our own. If our game was made up of brilliant young English players the game would be stronger than ever. If we won the World Cup, our economy would be strengthened no-end, and our game strengthened no-end. Whether it is lightbulbs or footballers, it all has a part to play in the economy and using English/British will always be better in the long run. Your view about mass-migration is so narrow that you have betrayed your ultra liberal mind-set. It is worrying to think that people feel only for the migrants and nothing for those that have to suffer from their mass arrival. Whether the migrants are law abiding and decent, and stuggling to intergrate, their very mass presence is to the detriment of our housing, national health and economy. That is a fact, not xenophobic, not jingoistic, just common sense. I want to protect my country and its long term interests. Just like the Irish would like to.
I don't agree that it would be more beneficial if the English game consisted only of English players. Look at other european leagues for example - Portugal, whilst having a very strong national team have a domestic-league about as strong as The Championship (bar the big names - Porto, Sporting Lisbon etc), because nearly the entire league is made up of Portuguese players. The Premier League on the other hand contains some of the world best players, be they Englishmen like Wayne Rooney, Ivorians like Drogba, Spaniards like Fabregas, Argentinians like Tevez, Serbians like Vidic etc. Ship out all the foreign players and what are you left with? About 10 world-class English players and the rest of the league made up of average Englishmen. That wouldn't make for a strong league, quite the opposite it would take away the appeal of The Premier League. Having foreign players in the league is good for the British economy - I'm sure somewhere there are figures which would show, for example, that the number of Africans attending football games when Chelsea signed the likes of Obi Mikel or Drogba rapidly increased, and the same for every other nationality when they seen their countries star player signing in The Premier League. The more attractive the league is (and the more recognition it gets around the world), the more people then wish to watch the football, bringing more money to the gates and thus more money being pumped into the British economy. My views on mass-migration are not narrow, I have extensive political and philosophical ideals, and these are not based only on sympathy for migrants but on a benefit for society as a whole. I'll use an example of what I meant about the contradictory cultural-values; A young muslim girl is brought up in England to Islamic parents. She is taught that she must marry a Muslim man. Yet the same parents have, out of their own will, decided that their daughter should be brought up in a western society, yet they try to force their own cultures values upon her. The girl, living in western society and thus not coming into contact with many other muslims falls in love with a white boy. Their relationship is torn apart because of the Islamic values of her parents, yet she is being raised in a country where she must also embrace western values. I do, in part, agree that mass-immigration is detrimental to the economy of Britain, but there are many British people who themselves, take advantage of free healthcare, and instead of attempting to get a job (something a large number of skilled migrants do), they laze around all day claiming benefits. I don't think this topic should stray into the territory of criticizing the unemployed, nor criticizing immigrants who come here to work. My 'ultra-liberal mind-set' as you call it, at times, extends further than the constructs of barriers we create in society, in fact I could argue for a free world in which people are free to come and go as they please, but that's a philosophical ideal which is unrealistic in this modern world and far deeper than I have the time or energy to illustrate and justify.
I appreciate that you have taken the time to illustrate and justify your belief system, I really do. I also appreciate that people will have different opinions on this very moot subject. However, the stance that you have taken is, in my opinion, very narrow. I would accept readily that my opinions on immigration are very narrow. I pride myself on the fact that I want the best for my country and its people. At a time of economic strife and growing civil unrest, is it foolish to focus on our own resources and how we can get the best out of them? I do not think it is. The notion that many English people are too idle to work is a lazy and quite insulting. This is the sort of garbage that politicians spout so that they can justify bringing in foreign labour. Yes, there are some who suffer from sticky mattress syndrome, and some who feel as though their opportunities are zero and do not even try to motivate themselves. So why not try and do something with them and their attitudes? Why fill the void with imported labour and ignore the long term problems yet again? We have the manpower, so why waste it? It is partly because the politicians cannot be bothered to do anything and mainly because they are too stupid to think of ways of galvanising our forgotten resources. Furthermore, what is the purpose of allowing mass immigration into a country already splitting at the seams? It benefits no-one, it costs too much and causes civil unrest. The migrants will in turn face the wrath of this unrest and most likely flee in terror. This misguided liberal approach will in fact cause more damage to the migrants in the long run as they will leave and have to try and settle in another country - after they have drained the system, that is. I could then type into the morning hours and list the other detrimental effects of mass-immigration: begging, gun crime, the watering down of the national curriculum, pickpocketing, prostitution, longer waiting lists, lack of social housing, the draining of police resources... this list is not exhaustive. So why do we continue to add to these woes? These issues already exist but our government continues to grind the country down. These are solid facts that cannot be disputed. There is no way of validating mass immigration. All it does is lead to situations like that of the the poor muslim girl that you mention. You nailed your own argument when you say that her parents do not want her to marry a white boy. Why not marry a white boy? Because they do not like us, they do not like our way of life, our customs or beliefs, but they very much like our money and benefits. The same can be said for the majority of migrants who come here. They like the money and nothing else. How short sighted to believe that they want to embrace our culture. They want to live apart from us, they hate us, but love what we give them for free. But who can blame them for taking the easy ride, eh? Trust me, I live in the very lowest place in the country. There is murder, rape, guns, drugs, prostitution, filth and degradation everywhere. The streets are rank and dangerous, you cannot walk alone during the day without fearing for your safety - yet I have three kids and a wife to worry about as well. I am trying my hardest to build a better life for them, but it is a struggle. No-one wants to buy my house in this area, even the original ethnics are moving away because of the crime that the Slavs, the Romanians and Bulgarians have brought with them. Angel Corner in Edmonton is a Somali zone, a filth ridden hell-hole. The prostitutes ply their trade in the church yards and drugs are dealt outside the schools by Eastern-Europeans in big flash cars. This is the reality of immigration - not the airy fairy BBC version of a diverse Utopia. Guardian readers should come down to my patch, Shank Town, and get a feel for the real world. They won't promote their ideals so readily when they have been mugged, raped and left for dead at the side of the railway lines. I have never said that there should be no foreign footballers in our game. I based my argument on the belief that we should look at bringing through our own before importing. Clubs will buy fully fledged players at huge cost, and why not? But I do not see how our game benefits from bringing in a 13 year old Norwegian when we could nurtute a 13 year old Englishman into an equally accomplished player. Rules should be set where clubs invest in English youth first, and thus strengthen the pool for the future England managers to pick from. You said yourself, that you are an Irishman who supports the Irish national team, so what does success for England mean to you? You support an English football club, the greatest of all English clubs, but what does it matter to you if the majority of the players are English? In fact, I bet you have felt immense pride when Irish footballers have played for Charlton - and good for you. But I am English and want English players to be successful at Charlton. Rant over.
To be honest its very difficult to form any political or philosophical ideals/beliefs system without being rather narrow. So yes, perhaps we both are. In reference to the point I made about some British people being lazy etc, I did not mean to offend, but I hope you weren't offended because I'm an Irishman saying it. I stand by the comment, there are slums in every city throughout Britain - Glasgow, Leeds, London, Manchester - in which a high percentage of people happily live off benefits (its such a cliched observation to make but its true). However, it wasn't a criticism of England, its the same in Ireland, in fact its the same in most countries. I apologise that my reply to your quite lengthy post is going to be quite short, really feel like I'm not doing it much justice but times ticking away and my bed is calling - but whilst I agree that mass-migration does provide this country with a heap of problems, be it healthcare, housing, crime rates, these would all still be problems even without immigrants living here. For example, take the Victorian ages, far less immigrants living in London during the Victorian ages but the crime rates were extremely high and it was perhaps one of the most dangerous times to have lived in London - the streets were filled with poverty, women turned to prostitution, murder was a frequent occurence and drug-use was high. If its not Eastern-Europeans doing the drug dealing and the street-attacks, it would be other such thugs - for as long as money exists in society, there will be crooks willing to break the law to get more of it. I do not wish to ignore the fact that there are very high figures related to crime rates and immigration, nor do I wish to dismiss it as being inevitable in any society. Clearly Ponders, you speak from bad experience so I will not argue with you, I sympathise a great deal with yourself and your family for living in such a horrible area and hope that your fortunes turn and you can move to somewhere nicer or else your area becomes better itself. Also, I respect your openness and willingness to defend the beliefs you hold . Though some may view them as extreme, I believe every individual holds the right to freedom of expression and you haven't shied away from standing by your beliefs. For now perhaps, we shouldn't discuss the matter in too much detail further, as some may feel uneasy talking about such a subject, but it would be nice to hear some views of other posters on this issue perhaps in the morning Also, just on a final note (so I can get a bit of football mentioned in this post ) , in response to my pride in Irish players pulling on the Charlton shirt - I do indeed feel proud that legends such as Mark Kinsella and Matt Holland were of Irish descent, but to be honest, I'd have Paul Benson over David Mooney any day - always preferred Rob Elliot over Darren Randolph and saw Miguel Llera as a far better defender than Gary Doherty
Sorry, I've skipped over the politics on this thread. The last two posts seemed entirely political, so I haven't really read them. Sorry about that. It's perfectly reasonable to want to improve the England national team, and ensure that it gets stronger in the future. However, the England national team is the responsibility of the FA and not the responsibility of the Premier League or any club. If the FA want to improve the prospects of the England national team, then the best way of doing it is by working on the training and development side. If foreign players are being trained better, that is something the FA should be addressing. The German club structures are about as far as you could possibly get from the English club structures. As such, any true comparison is difficult to make, without completely overhauling English club structures first. Fair enough if you want to do that, but that's another debate for another day. If you want to make comparisons to, say, Spain, Italy, France, or the Netherlands, that would be fair enough. As far as I know, the great French team of the turn of the century and the current Spanish team have both come from the investment and focus put by their FAs on the training and development of young players (Clairefontaine, etc), not through forcing clubs to do anything.
The great France team also scouted parts of Europe and Africa for their players. They still do it now!
Thank you for your response, WWOCB. I appreciate you taking the time at such a late hour. Your responses are, as always, eloquent and emotive. You also offer many magnanimous sentiments which is a kind and thoughtful approach - so thank you, once again. I do believe that the FA should adopt a more proactive approach to bringing through more talented English players. The German FA have done it, and the fruits of their labours are now showing through. Obviosuly it is a huge ask, but surely the Premier League and Football League would want to reap the benefits of having a truly world-class international side?
Should stick to Trainspotting - obviously not very good at Talent spotting.....But best of luck for the coming season, I really do hope your lot do well (despite the wumming) My dear old father in law used to follow your mob - took to his daughter but not his team!!!
