Are we fit?

[Roo]

Roo, I think I know why you have this view, you've seen what you would think to be older and wiser posters coming out with this...don't be hoodwinked! Its load of crap mate and here's why http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/shared/bsp/hi/football/statistics/players/m/mata_354968.stm If you scroll down to this season, you'll see he's played 25 games...the last one where he was MOM, just round the corner in Tokyo! and thats not long after Spains much publicised silly trip to Central America recently.

I could continue to list players who have played more and travelled further, and still look infinitly fitter. The posters previously spouting this have no idea, and are probably not capable of seeing the wood for the trees!

with all due respect Notso, I might only be 27, but being an adult, I'm actually capable of writing my own thoughts. I will always do so, whether that means agreeing or disagreeing with people.
No one has influenced my views on this, and regardless of Mata, I still don't believe that playing the best part of 20 odd games without a break and travelling across europe is good for anyone.
Perhaps we're not as fit as we could be, and in light of what spurcat has had to say my view has changed a bit, as he's someone who knows the situation far better than any of us do.
But we've not been faced with the injuries to first teamers that we've had, as well as playing twice a week with the same players, for some time.

I've got to be honest Notso, I'm really disappointed to see a comment like that from you, of all people. I feel really stupid.
Not sure what others might think of your comments, which indicate they "have no idea" either.

 

[PleaseNotPoll]

I counter it every season with what I've done here, proving other players have played more and travelled further, yet every time people here have to try and make some kind of exception for Spurs players...rather than admit a failing.

Which is why I pointed out the problem with your logic on this one, Notso.
Some players will be able to handle playing a ton of games and travelling all over the place. That doesn't mean that they all will or that they should be expected to.

 

[notsosmartspur]

Mmm, could have been worded differently! I didn't mean to be patronising or insulting to anyone, everything I've put was with a wry smile and not intended to offend, just spark 'lively' debate. Apologies to all who've read it different.

 

[notsosmartspur]

Which is why I pointed out the problem with your logic on this one, Notso.
Some players will be able to handle playing a ton of games and travelling all over the place. That doesn't mean that they all will or that they should be expected to.

What!?!? its there job of choice!

And as of yet you've put nothing here contradicting 'my logic', you've overlooked a certain posters interjection here though (can't see the wood for the trees). Remember what I said to you ages ago about reading between lines. Could my 'logic' be a fact!

 

[PleaseNotPoll]

What!?!? its there job of choice!

And as of yet you've put nothing here contradicting 'my logic', you've overlooked a certain posters interjection here though. Remember what I said to you ages ago about reading between lines. Could my 'logic' be a fact!

You've selected a few players and said, "They can do it, therefore everyone can do it." I've pointed out the obvious flaw in that.
Messi can score 80+ goals a year, so every player should be expected to do so.

 

[notsosmartspur]

You've selected a few players and said, "They can do it, therefore everyone can do it." I've pointed out the obvious flaw in that.
Messi can score 80+ goals a year, so every player should be expected to do so.

You've pointed nothing out at all, its drivel. I have said nothing of the sort like this "They can do it, therefore everyone can do it." If you can't see a team should be assembled with a level of fitness that all players should reach, that means a baseline, then fine. Some will have fitness over and above that as I have already stated. I've stated one player aswell, not a few, but I could list a number in 'tens'. If you can't/won't agree other teams are fitter than us then fine.

The Messi analogy was a waste of typing.

 

[PleaseNotPoll]

You're merely asserting that you're right and that anyone that disagrees with you is wrong and talking drivel, Notso.

You've repeatedly asserted that some players can play a ton of games, therefore our players can't be feeling the strain by playing an equal number of games and playing worse because of it.
The reverse argument would be to pick someone like Michael Owen and point out that anyone playing a lot will end up injured and out of the game later in their career.
Each player is different and highlighting individuals or small groups doesn't prove a thing.
The average player isn't up to playing every few days and performing at a high level consistently, which is why most top managers don't ask them to do so.

Where have I said that we shouldn't have a base fitness level that's achievable for every player?
Simply hasn't happened.

 

[notsosmartspur]

Nor have I said 'everyone should be the same' simply hasn't happened! but you felt it ok to put that.

If in reading the subject matter you can't realise that it is about a 'general' level of fitness...a baseline, it would go some way to explaining some of your answers.

Finally, why would you have a problem with me being right about something, even if its only partially? Lots of posters on here are right about something (just as much as being wrong I should add), when that happens, it should be questioned why you in particular seem to have a problem with that, instead of developing a line of discussion which is no longer a debate. Have I got to put Spurcats post in front of you again!

 

[Boss]

SC, interesting point about the training sessions as if the players are doing high intensity sessions/double sessions and then playing a more demanding system AND as roo points out about certain players playing more often then that is going to cause problems.

Overall it could be why were such a jerkly & hyde team and why we struggle to perform for long periods but i guess if Villas Boas beleives in his methods and is thinking long term then as spurf mentions, it will take time before the players master the system.

 

[notsosmartspur]

Found this on another thread...

District Line

As a neutral I'm of the opinion he's doing alright:

Positives

- Vastly improved away record
- Got Spurs winning games when not playing well
- Instilled a winning belief in all games i.e Redknapp would have virtually written off United away, AVB targeted it as a game Spurs could go and win
- It's not his squad. He's identified targets, needs more time to implement them
- Only 3 points off 3rd

Negatives

- Lack of fitness of players hence late goals, something that was apparent at Chelsea
- Average but improving home record.
- Nonsensical subs/tactical switches
- Capitulations at Everton and Arsenal

 

[vimhawk]

Don't quite know what to make of that, and I don't know what field of work you do to arrive at your euphemism "Complex problems have simple, easy to understand, wrong answers". I've worked all my life in some sort of mech/elec engineering, and I can assure you, complex million pound machines and large factories can be brought to a standstill over a fuse!

Agreed... but if the problem was a blown fuse then regardless of how complex it seemed, it was actually a simple problem and could be addressed with a simple answer.

My argument is that either (1) the problem isn't 'lack of fitness' alone because that is too simple. If it was simply fitness, then it could be simply addressed or (2) the problem doesn't actually exist and that it is wrong analysis based on a series of unfortunate events that appear to form a pattern of behaviour.

 

[notsosmartspur]

Agreed... but if the problem was a blown fuse then regardless of how complex it seemed, it was actually a simple problem and could be addressed with a simple answer.

My argument is that either (1) the problem isn't 'lack of fitness' alone because that is too simple. If it was simply fitness, then it could be simply addressed or (2) the problem doesn't actually exist and that it is wrong analysis based on a series of unfortunate events that appear to form a pattern of behaviour.

I'm sorry vimhawk but imo fitness is a science in itself and not 'simply addressed', fitness is a result of careful timing and a balance of exercise and recovery, and you can't correct it in a short period of time. It isn't easy to get a group of individuals to peak at the same time because everyone is different agreed, but in the main it is possible for the majority, with good training management. Also, not me in my OP, or anyone since has inferred it is a sole cause to the problem of our lacklustre end to games. No-one is disputing there is a problem/s, its as plain as day, and a lack of fitness is 'part' of it, not a pattern of behaviour. What sort of behaviour??...can't be arsed with the last 10mins!?

We mustn't forget physical and mental fitness go hand in hand either, tiredness leads to a loss of concentration in what you're supposed to be doing, leading to individual errors, something else thats evident in the last 10mins.

 

[notsosmartspur]

Is it fitness or has it just been the Spurs way in the last 20 years or so?

Stat of the day: Spurs have lost 8 PL games after being 2-0 up (one famously from 3-0 up).

My theory is that Spurs have generally played an open game and have rarely been equipped to defend a lead successfully like Arsenal or Liverpool used to do when they made winning 1-0 an art form. The present team has fitted the profile this season- scoring plenty, but conceding plenty too ( 25 in 16 games and only 2 clean sheets is it?).

Yet last season the team bucked the trend and did very well defensively for the most part and it was due to three things which are lacking at the moment- a) a midfield playmaker (Modric) who could retain the ball for long periods, b) the 4-4-1-1 formation which pushed teams back and forced them to do a lot of chasing of the ball and c) Parker shielding the defence in the event that possession was lost high up the pitch and Spurs were vulnerable to counterattacks.

Spurs defence had a few notable off days last season - Utd (h) and (a), City (h), Arsenal (a)- 16 goals conceded in 4 games- but meaning that only 25 goals were conceded in the other 34 games, including 14 clean sheets- an impressive record by any standards. On paper the defence is stronger this season so when Parker returns it shouldn't be beyond the team's capabilities to get back to being solid at the back again, should it?

Not much to disagree with there either Luke, but is only part reason. Yes the personnel changes have contributed to our defence being busier than any other team in the league, we know that, but imo the goals conceded is a combination of lack of fitness and what you mention here.

 

[redwhiteandermblue]

Yet last season the team bucked the trend and did very well defensively for the most part and it was due to three things which are lacking at the moment- a) a midfield playmaker (Modric) who could retain the ball for long periods, b) the 4-4-1-1 formation which pushed teams back and forced them to do a lot of chasing of the ball and c) Parker shielding the defence in the event that possession was lost high up the pitch and Spurs were vulnerable to counterattacks.

Another big factor was a back four of Beni, Ledley, Kaboul and Walker. Granted, Gallas often played for Ledley, but other than that the back four was both very steady and excellent in quality. Compare that to the patchwork and ever-changing back fours we've had this season. Beni's particularly good at dribbling and/or passing out, instead of just booting it back to the other team.

I also have to mention that playing two games a week should increase the number of injuries. It will will also tend to reduce the number and frequency of fitness drills. (If you only have one day to prepare for a game, you're likelier to let fitness drills wait.)

But having said that, the biggest problem with the late collapses looks to me to by psychological. Once you let yourself get on the back foot, you get more and more negative, and the other team gets more and more ambitious. I'm hoping the team will apply what they did against Swansea, where it was clear the best defence...