An Observation Or Two

[royalbarclayfan]

It´s interesting to note that the expected (for some, anyway) upturn in fortunes, once Alex Neil had departed, hasn´t materialised, a fact that (for others, anyway) is not the slightest bit surprising. Also interesting, is the fact that the continued total lack of motivation, and general bloody uselessness of the players, has noticeably not been laid at Alan Irvine´s door in the same way as it was at Alex Neil´s, despite performances being equally as miserable, post-Neil, as pre-Irvine. Accepted, Irvine is only in an interim, make-ends-meet, position, but the amount of criticism Alex Neil received, especially on the motivating front, and where ( for some, anyway) almost anyone would have seemed to be preferable, one would have expected, with Neil´s departure, that motivation would no longer be a problem.

Ryan Bennett (post-Neil) still has no more inkling of how to deal with a long, straight ball through the middle, than he had (pre-Irvine). Crabwise Alex Tettey (pre-Irvine) is still crabwise Tettey (post-Neil), and dear old hard-working Jerome (post-Neil) still needs five gilt-edged chances in front of goal, before he might put one away, as did the Jerome (pre-Irvine). Little Mr. Pritchard (post-Neil) is still flattering to deceive, and delivering little, as did Pritchard (pre-Irvine), and so the list could go on and on.

Where am I going with this? - well only so far as to say, that the century-old habit of dumping the boss when the players are crap, proves time and time again, that it needs a bit of revising. And as for the players having to be motivated, before they will actually go out and do their jobs, well that just beggars belief, how many of us here wouldn´t have given their eye teeth to be a professional footballer? - at some time in their lives, every kid does. If the players can´t motivate themselves to do this job, then they need to find something else to do. I can´t think of a cushier job anywhere, where the wages earned, correlate so absurdly to the work completed. Russell Martin´s comment today about the players hiding behind Alex Neil and letting him take the brunt of the aggression and criticism, for the last eight months, is very telling, and rather sums up our season, and seems a very appropriate way to end this.

Here´s looking to a complete and thorough clear out in the summer, and a new start, with a new and energetic regime, with clear ideas of where they want to go. OTBC

 

[carrowcanario]

To be fair no one was suggesting that the sacking of AN would make any difference in itself, nor has anyone that I'm aware of suggested that anything would change significant under Irvine. But the removal of AN as manager was a necessary first small step along the road to improve things and that at the moment looks like a very long road. Why would the players suddenly change just because AN left ? As Irvine said they have pretty much been inadequate all season, BUT if they are not good enough, motivated on whatever it is the manager's and coaching staffs job to sort it out, AN and his coaching staff had plenty of time to sort things out, they failed. The current team (squad) is AN's / Irvine's team (squad). The time to assess whether the dismissal of AN and the change of structure / staff has resulted in improvements is this time next year, not now. I would discount pretty much anything Martin says, as he is very much part of the problem / past, although he is right about one thing as captain he has to shoulder some of the blame for the teams performance on the pitch, as well as for his regular incompetent performances and no one player is blameless for our current situation. Last summer I was one of the few posters on here advocating a good clear out of deadwood and interestingly many posters who were telling me that everything was fine and the squad just needed a bit of tinkering are now some of the first to blame the players. Some of our players are just not good enough (40%), some are good enough but not motivated (20%), some are good enough and either trying their best despite the poor management / tactics being deployed or the competence of their team mates (15%) and some are just not being given a chance (25%).

 

[zogean_king]

I mean this season is gone... play some yoof for goodness sake, can't be any worse and it will help for next season

 

[JM Fan]

I mean this season is gone... play some yoof for goodness sake, can't be any worse and it will help for next season

Absolutely ZK, but if AI is going to remain in charge of team selection/tactics for many more games after tomorrow, I think he's going to persevere with the same 'living dead' who have capitulated so spectacularly on umpteen occasions already this season.
I'm sure we're ALL hoping SW will start having some discussions with AI as to who should be dropped etc after tomorrow's game!!!

 

[zogean_king]

Absolutely ZK, but if AI is going to remain in charge of team selection/tactics for many more games after tomorrow, I think he's going to persevere with the same 'living dead' who have capitulated so spectacularly on umpteen occasions already this season.
I'm sure we're ALL hoping SW will start having some discussions with AI as to who should be dropped etc after tomorrow's game!!!

I hope so. I mean does 8th or 15th place matter, no! If 8th then screws you up for a promotion push next year then yes it does matter!

 

[royalbarclayfan]

I'm sure we're ALL hoping SW will start having some discussions with AI as to who should be dropped etc after tomorrow's game!!!

Well, in a way yes, and in a way, no, JM. What you´ve outlined there is exactly the sort of situation I envisaged might happen, with, in effect, two team leaders. As far as I understand it, Webber is not a coach, does not have, and will not have, any day to day working with the players, so any team selection has to be left to the head coach, or in this case the interim head coach. No doubt the two of them will have discussions about players, but the final say on who plays and who doesn´t , will have to come from the head coach, or else we really will be in trouble, and we´ll also be getting through head coaches, at a hitherto unheard of rate.

 

[General Melchett]

It´s interesting to note that the expected (for some, anyway) upturn in fortunes, once Alex Neil had departed, hasn´t materialised Could this be because we had no new manager to create a feel good bounce? or fresh ideas?, a fact that (for others, anyway) is not the slightest bit surprising If you'd told me we'd still be limping on with Irvine at the helm, playing the same tactics with the same players I would agree. Also interesting, is the fact that the continued total lack of motivation, and general bloody uselessness of the players, has noticeably not been laid at Alan Irvine´s door in the same way as it was at Alex Neil´s, despite performances being equally as miserable, post-Neil, as pre-Irvine. Accepted, Irvine is only in an interim, make-ends-meet, position, but the amount of criticism Alex Neil received, especially on the motivating front, and where ( for some, anyway) almost anyone would have seemed to be preferable, one would have expected, with Neil´s departure, that motivation would no longer be a problem. I think this is non-sense, A change of Manager from outside may very well have given a lift, clear tactics, giving the players on the periphery a chance. But Irvine has changed nothing, the other coaches are the same, so why would it likely help? The bit in bold hits the nail on the head, almost anyone! Someone internal and a cheap option was roundly critisised as probably the most likely thing with our board, but also the worst. Of the list of names, many were stated to be undesirable but that doesn't change the fact the best thing about getting rid of him was that it offered hope from the then malais, that Irvine his here is not so criterised because whilst we moan, we can hope that the new structure will yield a better chance of good footy and promotion. We expect nothing better from Irvine at the end of the day. But as I stated, if he picks the same rotten lot for the next game, I'd sack him on the spot and bring in the youth coach to see if we can at least assess the younguns a bit for next season.

Ryan Bennett (post-Neil) still has no more inkling of how to deal with a long, straight ball through the middle, than he had (pre-Irvine). Crabwise Alex Tettey (pre-Irvine) is still crabwise Tettey (post-Neil), and dear old hard-working Jerome (post-Neil) still needs five gilt-edged chances in front of goal, before he might put one away, as did the Jerome (pre-Irvine). Little Mr. Pritchard (post-Neil) is still flattering to deceive, and delivering little, as did Pritchard (pre-Irvine), and so the list could go on and on.
These are long term failings, these pre date Neil, this is why I am at least a little optomistic about Webber, a DoF would surely have ensured the defense was not ignored for so long and that we did not overload ourselves with 65 attacking midfielders before selling and loaning out all our left backs! Another point is that none of these players have improved under Neil (Or Irvine as both coach and manager) So his sacking must once again be celebrated, Even if only 2-3 players improve under a new regime, that is 2-3 better than the current lot.

Where am I going with this? - well only so far as to say, that the century-old habit of dumping the boss when the players are crap, proves time and time again, that it needs a bit of revising. I genuinely don't think any club wants to change manager, ever. That usually means two negative things may have happened. They have not progressed or hit targets or they have been pinched. The later is preferable because it means he is likely doing something right, still a shame to lose them. But most clubs know stability is good, you can build and improve. However, if you appear not to be improving or building, why persist? Neil and Hughton before him were taking us backwards and we sacked both too late to save the respective seasons. (I know you'll argue that Hughton is doing so well it was a foolish move, but the only foolish moves were; leaving it too late and then appointing Adams!) And as for the players having to be motivated, before they will actually go out and do their jobs, well that just beggars belief, how many of us here wouldn´t have given their eye teeth to be a professional footballer? - at some time in their lives, every kid does. If the players can´t motivate themselves to do this job, then they need to find something else to do. I can´t think of a cushier job anywhere, where the wages earned, correlate so absurdly to the work completed. Russell Martin´s comment today about the players hiding behind Alex Neil and letting him take the brunt of the aggression and criticism, for the last eight months, is very telling, and rather sums up our season, and seems a very appropriate way to end this.
The whole motivation thing, you are being far to simplistic about. Yes you, I and the rest of the board would all kill to be earning what they earn and playing football for a living. It's that childhood dream! But it's very different living a dream than fantasising about one. These lads will have been playing all of their lives, they will have seen highs and lows, good and bad managers, good and bad crowds and good and bad facilities. But if you have done something for 25 years, the gloss can wear off, unless you truely still love it, a bad manager can have a dispiriting effect. It's really no different to any other job in that regard. Give anyone what they want and it can be a good recipe, but not for everyone. Some like direction and a clear plan, others are more free spirited and will feel stiffled and frustrated. Confuse everyone and have a poor plan and everyone even the most diligent will find it harder to excel. They may have professional pride enough to fight, but to excel they need not just themselves but the whole team buying in. This where Neil was, I think. You have the fighters like Jerome and Howson who stand out in a demotivated and confused team.

Here´s looking to a complete and thorough clear out in the summer, and a new start, with a new and energetic regime, with clear ideas of where they want to go. OTBC[/QUOTE]
Totally agree, we can but hope OTBC

Bah!

 

[General Melchett]

Well, in a way yes, and in a way, no, JM. What you´ve outlined there is exactly the sort of situation I envisaged might happen, with, in effect, two team leaders. As far as I understand it, Webber is not a coach, does not have, and will not have, any day to day working with the players, so any team selection has to be left to the head coach, or in this case the interim head coach. No doubt the two of them will have discussions about players, but the final say on who plays and who doesn´t , will have to come from the head coach, or else we really will be in trouble, and we´ll also be getting through head coaches, at a hitherto unheard of rate.

I too would be disturbed if the DoF starts trying to pick the team. He could direct strategy, for example asking the manager to play with more youngsters to ready them for next season, but any more than that and too many cooks!

Bah!

 

[ThaiCanary]

It´s interesting to note that the expected (for some, anyway) upturn in fortunes, once Alex Neil had departed, hasn´t materialised, a fact that (for others, anyway) is not the slightest bit surprising. Also interesting, is the fact that the continued total lack of motivation, and general bloody uselessness of the players, has noticeably not been laid at Alan Irvine´s door in the same way as it was at Alex Neil´s, despite performances being equally as miserable, post-Neil, as pre-Irvine. Accepted, Irvine is only in an interim, make-ends-meet, position, but the amount of criticism Alex Neil received, especially on the motivating front, and where ( for some, anyway) almost anyone would have seemed to be preferable, one would have expected, with Neil´s departure, that motivation would no longer be a problem.

Ryan Bennett (post-Neil) still has no more inkling of how to deal with a long, straight ball through the middle, than he had (pre-Irvine). Crabwise Alex Tettey (pre-Irvine) is still crabwise Tettey (post-Neil), and dear old hard-working Jerome (post-Neil) still needs five gilt-edged chances in front of goal, before he might put one away, as did the Jerome (pre-Irvine). Little Mr. Pritchard (post-Neil) is still flattering to deceive, and delivering little, as did Pritchard (pre-Irvine), and so the list could go on and on.

Where am I going with this? - well only so far as to say, that the century-old habit of dumping the boss when the players are crap, proves time and time again, that it needs a bit of revising. And as for the players having to be motivated, before they will actually go out and do their jobs, well that just beggars belief, how many of us here wouldn´t have given their eye teeth to be a professional footballer? - at some time in their lives, every kid does. If the players can´t motivate themselves to do this job, then they need to find something else to do. I can´t think of a cushier job anywhere, where the wages earned, correlate so absurdly to the work completed. Russell Martin´s comment today about the players hiding behind Alex Neil and letting him take the brunt of the aggression and criticism, for the last eight months, is very telling, and rather sums up our season, and seems a very appropriate way to end this.

Here´s looking to a complete and thorough clear out in the summer, and a new start, with a new and energetic regime, with clear ideas of where they want to go. OTBC

I can't reads that - it does not rhyme or scan at all

 

[royalbarclayfan]

I can't reads that - it does not rhyme or scan at all

 

[JM Fan]

Well, in a way yes, and in a way, no, JM. What you´ve outlined there is exactly the sort of situation I envisaged might happen, with, in effect, two team leaders. As far as I understand it, Webber is not a coach, does not have, and will not have, any day to day working with the players, so any team selection has to be left to the head coach, or in this case the interim head coach. No doubt the two of them will have discussions about players, but the final say on who plays and who doesn´t , will have to come from the head coach, or else we really will be in trouble, and we´ll also be getting through head coaches, at a hitherto unheard of rate.

Ha yes, RBF and I hadn't thought it through prior to my post and start the club REALLY needs now is stability in the SD/HC posts!!
Brilliant post General.

 

[royalbarclayfan]

It´s interesting to note that the expected (for some, anyway) upturn in fortunes, once Alex Neil had departed, hasn´t materialised Could this be because we had no new manager to create a feel good bounce? or fresh ideas?, a fact that (for others, anyway) is not the slightest bit surprising If you'd told me we'd still be limping on with Irvine at the helm, playing the same tactics with the same players I would agree. Also interesting, is the fact that the continued total lack of motivation, and general bloody uselessness of the players, has noticeably not been laid at Alan Irvine´s door in the same way as it was at Alex Neil´s, despite performances being equally as miserable, post-Neil, as pre-Irvine. Accepted, Irvine is only in an interim, make-ends-meet, position, but the amount of criticism Alex Neil received, especially on the motivating front, and where ( for some, anyway) almost anyone would have seemed to be preferable, one would have expected, with Neil´s departure, that motivation would no longer be a problem. I think this is non-sense, A change of Manager from outside may very well have given a lift, clear tactics, giving the players on the periphery a chance. But Irvine has changed nothing, the other coaches are the same, so why would it likely help? The bit in bold hits the nail on the head, almost anyone! Someone internal and a cheap option was roundly critisised as probably the most likely thing with our board, but also the worst. Of the list of names, many were stated to be undesirable but that doesn't change the fact the best thing about getting rid of him was that it offered hope from the then malais, that Irvine his here is not so criterised because whilst we moan, we can hope that the new structure will yield a better chance of good footy and promotion. We expect nothing better from Irvine at the end of the day. But as I stated, if he picks the same rotten lot for the next game, I'd sack him on the spot and bring in the youth coach to see if we can at least assess the younguns a bit for next season.

Ryan Bennett (post-Neil) still has no more inkling of how to deal with a long, straight ball through the middle, than he had (pre-Irvine). Crabwise Alex Tettey (pre-Irvine) is still crabwise Tettey (post-Neil), and dear old hard-working Jerome (post-Neil) still needs five gilt-edged chances in front of goal, before he might put one away, as did the Jerome (pre-Irvine). Little Mr. Pritchard (post-Neil) is still flattering to deceive, and delivering little, as did Pritchard (pre-Irvine), and so the list could go on and on.
These are long term failings, these pre date Neil, this is why I am at least a little optomistic about Webber, a DoF would surely have ensured the defense was not ignored for so long and that we did not overload ourselves with 65 attacking midfielders before selling and loaning out all our left backs! Another point is that none of these players have improved under Neil (Or Irvine as both coach and manager) So his sacking must once again be celebrated, Even if only 2-3 players improve under a new regime, that is 2-3 better than the current lot.

Where am I going with this? - well only so far as to say, that the century-old habit of dumping the boss when the players are crap, proves time and time again, that it needs a bit of revising. I genuinely don't think any club wants to change manager, ever. That usually means two negative things may have happened. They have not progressed or hit targets or they have been pinched. The later is preferable because it means he is likely doing something right, still a shame to lose them. But most clubs know stability is good, you can build and improve. However, if you appear not to be improving or building, why persist? Neil and Hughton before him were taking us backwards and we sacked both too late to save the respective seasons. (I know you'll argue that Hughton is doing so well it was a foolish move, but the only foolish moves were; leaving it too late and then appointing Adams!) And as for the players having to be motivated, before they will actually go out and do their jobs, well that just beggars belief, how many of us here wouldn´t have given their eye teeth to be a professional footballer? - at some time in their lives, every kid does. If the players can´t motivate themselves to do this job, then they need to find something else to do. I can´t think of a cushier job anywhere, where the wages earned, correlate so absurdly to the work completed. Russell Martin´s comment today about the players hiding behind Alex Neil and letting him take the brunt of the aggression and criticism, for the last eight months, is very telling, and rather sums up our season, and seems a very appropriate way to end this.
The whole motivation thing, you are being far to simplistic about. Yes you, I and the rest of the board would all kill to be earning what they earn and playing football for a living. It's that childhood dream! But it's very different living a dream than fantasising about one. These lads will have been playing all of their lives, they will have seen highs and lows, good and bad managers, good and bad crowds and good and bad facilities. But if you have done something for 25 years, the gloss can wear off, unless you truely still love it, a bad manager can have a dispiriting effect. It's really no different to any other job in that regard. Give anyone what they want and it can be a good recipe, but not for everyone. Some like direction and a clear plan, others are more free spirited and will feel stiffled and frustrated. Confuse everyone and have a poor plan and everyone even the most diligent will find it harder to excel. They may have professional pride enough to fight, but to excel they need not just themselves but the whole team buying in. This where Neil was, I think. You have the fighters like Jerome and Howson who stand out in a demotivated and confused team.

Here´s looking to a complete and thorough clear out in the summer, and a new start, with a new and energetic regime, with clear ideas of where they want to go. OTBC

Totally agree, we can but hope OTBC

Bah![/QUOTE]

I´m only going to pick you up on one thing Melchy, and that is, you say that Neil´s sacking should be celebrated. I´d say it´s far too soon to draw that conclusion. Very possibly it will be seen, as the catalyst for an upturn in our fortunes, BUT at the time when most fans ( you included) were calling for his head, which was after all, way back in December or even earlier last year, none of us had any idea that the board might be considering a restructuring, and in all probablity, they weren´t at that time, themselves. So, in fans´ minds, had he been sacked then, we would just have had to replace him with another manager, which I´ve been saying all along, I didn´t think would make any difference. And in fact, our reverred Mr. Webber said as much, in one of his first interviews here, he repeated word for word what I´ve been saying for months - that is, that any manager/coach is only ever as good as his players - and it really is as simple as that. You can bring in who you like, and call them what you like, manager, coach, God if you like, but if the players are no good, you´re wasting your time. As he pointed out, Huddersfield´s meteoric rise from 19th last year to play-offs, this, is down to the 15, 16, 19 or whatever, new players they have brought in. Looking at our squad, we have two half-decent full-backs, and that´s about it, the rest barely reach Championship level. Some people on here keep telling me (although in fairness that is slackening off slightly) how talented our players are, and how it was all down to Neil that we just couldn´t get the best out of them, and how we ought to be walking this League ( Quote of the Year, that one) , which I have never agreed with, and still don´t.

We need a total, and effective clear-out this summer, and even more importantly, a new, and far more qualified, set of replacements, otherwise whoever we bring in as Head Coach, will wish he´d stayed away. I´m certainly not celebrating anything yet.

 

[JM Fan]

Great post RBF and whilst there's optimism for the future, I can only see next season as one of rebuilding, akin to when we went down to League 1.

 

[royalbarclayfan]

Great post RBF and whilst there's optimism for the future, I can only see next season as one of rebuilding, akin to when we went down to League 1.

I think almost certainly it will have to be JM, we´ve got to walk first, before we can run.