An Interesting Moral Conundrum?

[Saints_Alive]

A comment on another thread got me thinking are you glad that the spying got exposed but we suffered the harsh consequences or would you have preferred that we never got caught and we got promoted and Tonda carried on authorising systemic moral cheating?
It would still be considered wrong in the EPL even if there is not a rule against it as Bielsa's Leeds were punished before there was a rule in the EFL.
If we did get caught in the EPL would the retrospective investigation have been even worse for us?
I know what I prefer but i'm interested to find out if others feel the same.

 

[Libby]

Neither for me. I'm glad he got caught but for the reason it stopped any chance of promotion.

 

[thereisonlyoneno7]

The football world is devoid of morals and full of inconsistencies.

Yes spying is wrong, but is it only because the EFL tell us or is it because we are all morally outraged by it. To me it is questionable. Yes we may gain a heads up, but the way teams adapt mid game whatever we learn is minimal.

I wouldn’t say what we did was morally wrong, but plain stupid.

 

[Saintmagic]

Don’t want to hijack the thread but a similar question I’ve seen posed to the people who want Tonda gone because of this is, if the punishment was a fine and point deduction, but we weren’t kicked out of the playoffs would you still want him sacked?

It seems to me like the initial outrage and Tonda has to go/sack everyone involved was in the 24/48 hours after we got kicked out. I think if we hadn’t been kicked out nowhere near as many people would’ve taken that stance. Which goes against the view we need to get rid of him from a moral standpoint.

 

[It'sOnlyAGame]

I know the difference between right and wrong. I know what Saints did was wrong.

Should Saints be held accountable and apologise for cheating the next time a player holds the opposition's shirt? No
Has what Saints have done damaged the integrity of football? No
Do I feel that cheating is rife within football and this affair has been blown out of all proportion? Yes
Should I feel ashamed of what Saints have done? No
Have Saints been too heavily punished? Yes
Do I think that fans who think differently to me consider themselves to have higher moral values and enjoy telling us ? Yes

 

[SaintStu]

I think we need to get rid of Tonda, not because of any perceived advantage gained by spying, but purely in an attempt to regain the narrative and grow our reputation again.

My view on the spying - it was such a minimal advantage it was not worth the cost even before you factor in the risks and morality, and that itself shows a lack of management and oversight - just plain stupid.

 

[Saints_Alive]

I think it is the underhand sneaky and premeditated nature of spying to gain advantage that I have a problem with personally.
I can sympathise with Derby and Boro fans because I know how i'd feel if we had been spied on especially before such an important match.
Cheating on the pitch is different to me because it is spur of the moment and is policed in real time by a referee.
I am happy that it was exposed because I think we would've been in much worse trouble retrospectively if it was found out later on.

 

[Velcro Roy]

I think it is the underhand sneaky and premeditated nature of spying to gain advantage that I have a problem with personally.
I can sympathise with Derby and Boro fans because I know how i'd feel if we had been spied on especially before such an important match.
Cheating on the pitch is different to me because it is spur of the moment and is policed in real time by a referee.
I am happy that it was exposed because I think we would've been in much worse trouble retrospectively if it was found out later on.

Dont agree on the pitch is spur of the moment,I'm sure they practice that crap for hours and that is serious cheating in my eyes.

 

[Saints_Alive]

Dont agree on the pitch is spur of the moment,I'm sure they practice that crap for hours and that is serious cheating in my eyes.

Trying to find out what your opponent's gameplan and tactics before a match so you are ready to counteract it is not serious?

 

[LincolnSaint]

I think we need to get rid of Tonda, not because of any perceived advantage gained by spying, but purely in an attempt to regain the narrative and grow our reputation again.

My view on the spying - it was such a minimal advantage it was not worth the cost even before you factor in the risks and morality, and that itself shows a lack of management and oversight - just plain stupid.

Some Saints fans on social media (not necessarily you) have been really weird about our reputation particularly around the views of opposing fans towards Southampton fc, I genuinely don't understand this train of thought. How does it benefit the club to be thought as nice/decent or even worse "a family club?"

I think our previous "good" reputation was because we're totally bland, unassuming and have sold our academy talent to other clubs for **** all, we roll over every time a big club clicks it fingers. More importantly we never win anything, so there's no hard feelings there, and the club is no threat to anyone in terms of poaching players. We roll out the red carpet to away fans and they generally feel happy going home with 3 points.

Players won't give a ****, they're after success and winning not giving 2 ****s what Colin the Watford fan thinks of their employer.

I could definitely cope with being hated but winning stuff.

 

[thereisonlyoneno7]

Is it so much more 'spur of the moment' if player cheats on the pitch, or is it just that they have been coached to do that and the opportunity arises?

 

[SR get out of my club]

Trying to find out what your opponent's gameplan and tactics before a match so you are ready to counteract it is not serious?

Did we do that though or did we just check the players who were training? Pretty sure with Boro we just checked on hackney being available.

I think this is blown so far out of proportion it is unrecognisable from the minor infringement. The punishment was obscene for the 'crime'.

 

[Saints_Alive]

Did we do that though or did we just check the players who were training? Pretty sure with Boro we just checked on hackney being available.

I think this is blown so far out of proportion it is unrecognisable from the minor infringement. The punishment was obscene for the 'crime'.

In the case of spying on Ipswich at Eastleigh FC we had analysts dressed in the latter's tracksuits and presumably able to get fairly close to the training session. They could've gleaned all sorts of information from that.
I agree that the punishment was well over the top but it's the fact that it was done on multiple occasions that went against us

 

[SR get out of my club]

I dunno, I’d have laughed if I was in the panel when it was revealed we were like the Eastleigh natives in trackies.

 

[LincolnSaint]

Did we do that though or did we just check the players who were training? Pretty sure with Boro we just checked on hackney being available.

I think this is blown so far out of proportion it is unrecognisable from the minor infringement. The punishment was obscene for the 'crime'.

The craziest bit for me is that Boro gave a statement determining what our sanction should be, and would you know it? That's exactly what the EFL did. The outcome of that and any appeal was made way in advance of the hearing and you can call me a conspiracy nut, but it had Gibsons fingerprints all over it. Being kicked out of the playoffs for this is so grotesquely disproportionate it's mental.

But what I'm most ****ing mad about is dickhead Parsons massively underestimating his opponents, given the EFL and Gibson are one and the same. How that clown has climbed to the top of a corporate ladder in football, the most cut throat industry out there is mind boggling.

At every single juncture he could and should have put the brakes on. Could have sought top legal advice immediately. Who the **** acquiesces to an appeal hearing 24hrs after the ****ing findings?

Get the **** to hand his pass in and get him out the door. I'll give him a copy of Sun Tzu to read prior to all his future endeavours, the naive prick.

 

[metalmonkey80]

The problem is it's all lumped into one and become an emotional tarball that sucks in as much of the drama as it can.

Looking at the sporting side:

We broke a set of EFL rules against Oxford in the league - got a sporting sanction of -2 points

We broke a set of EFL rules against Ipswich in the league - got a sporting sanction of -2 points

We broke a set of EFL rules against Boro in the playoffs - got a sporting sanction of losing that game and therefore out of the knock out rounds - the financial implications of the play offs are frankly irrelevant to the sanction decision despite the media and the EFL both making comments around it.

There is the implication that we've done the EFL rule breaking more often - no other club came calling with charges and in our "evidence" we didn't implicate ourselves on other games - benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise.

The FA are supposedly investigating but until they actually state what they are looking for I can't do anything other than speculate - ie how can the FA punish someone for something that is not a rule in all of their jurisdiction and also how could they possibly get it lifted up to UEFA when it's not a rule in their set either? Which means it will be some vague "game into disrepute" charge.

So we've been punished via sporting sanctions for our sporting regulation breaches. I put this into the category of pushing the bounds for sporting advantage and EVERY single sport has it in some way - is it right? No. Do I accept it on the premise that all sport is rife. Yes, but I'd like to see sport get cleaner but that comes with rules, sanctions and time.

On the accusations around coercion / bullying side that is an internal HR item for the club and it should be handled internally by the club and not dragged out in public but I don't like abusive people so if the right process deems it so then he should go.

I'm glad someone got caught on this rule and that the EFL has set a harsh sanction - it's only by making it too much a risk to do it will people stop doing it - but I also reserve the right to be pissed off it was us that got caught.

I don't condone cheating but the only way to have it stop happening (and I just saw a pig fly by the window) is the teach it out and punish transgressions fully.

 

[SaintStu]

Some Saints fans on social media (not necessarily you) have been really weird about our reputation particularly around the views of opposing fans towards Southampton fc, I genuinely don't understand this train of thought. How does it benefit the club to be thought as nice/decent or even worse "a family club?"

I think our previous "good" reputation was because we're totally bland, unassuming and have sold our academy talent to other clubs for **** all, we roll over every time a big club clicks it fingers. More importantly we never win anything, so there's no hard feelings there, and the club is no threat to anyone in terms of poaching players. We roll out the red carpet to away fans and they generally feel happy going home with 3 points.

Players won't give a ****, they're after success and winning not giving 2 ****s what Colin the Watford fan thinks of their employer.

I could definitely cope with being hated but winning stuff.

Lincoln -
I take your point and I don't particularly care what opposing fans think of us, but it does matter in the commercial world and the media, and as that is a huge part of the finance behind us, this will allow us to be competitive. I much prefer to be sponsored by P&O rather than some Chinese betting site, and reputation along with success enables the club to get more money and then build on that success.
I also think it is important for our academy - Johnnies parents thinking Southampton is a good place for their wonder kid to come and develop.

 

[SR get out of my club]

The craziest bit for me is that Boro gave a statement determining what our sanction should be, and would you know it? That's exactly what the EFL did. The outcome of that and any appeal was made way in advance of the hearing and you can call me a conspiracy nut, but it had Gibsons fingerprints all over it. Being kicked out of the playoffs for this is so grotesquely disproportionate it's mental.

But what I'm most ****ing mad about is dickhead Parsons massively underestimating his opponents, given the EFL and Gibson are one and the same. How that clown has climbed to the top of a corporate ladder in football, the most cut throat industry out there is mind boggling.

At every single juncture he could and should have put the brakes on. Could have sought top legal advice immediately. Who the **** acquiesces to an appeal hearing 24hrs after the ****ing findings?

Get the **** to hand his pass in and get him out the door. I'll give him a copy of Sun Tzu to read prior to all his future endeavours, the naive prick.

Yep I agree.

I am still hoping we are seeking legal council and defo hope we make the EFL bankrupt over this.

It was predetermined in my view, I think they hoped we would lose to Boro, and then when we didnt they panicked.

There was no reason for us to be excluded. Other than Parsons handing it to them on a silver platter.

I find it mental a minority on here are so against what happened.

I mean I wish we hadnt done it but ffs there is worse stuff.

I keep coming back to the silence from the club, in that I wonder if they can't say anything yet that could prejudice our case.

Oh, and **** Parsons, Boro, **** the EFL, and why not say a **** VAR too.

 

[LincolnSaint]

Lincoln -
I take your point and I don't particularly care what opposing fans think of us, but it does matter in the commercial world and the media, and as that is a huge part of the finance behind us, this will allow us to be competitive. I much prefer to be sponsored by P&O rather than some Chinese betting site, and reputation along with success enables the club to get more money and then build on that success.
I also think it is important for our academy - Johnnies parents thinking Southampton is a good place for their wonder kid to come and develop.

I'd be happy to be sponsored by North Korea nuclear missile programme if it brought in more money mate. Moralising about this is pointless. Football sold it's soul a long long time ago so I'm past giving a ****, being nice/fair/moral has resulted in exactly one trophy in our entire history. None in my lifetime.

As for the academy, parents aren't going to give a **** otherwise Newcastle, City, and the rest wouldn't have one. It's more important to them that little Johnny earns his 35k a week, the head coach could be Putin and they'd still come if he picked their son.

 

[Libby]

Yep I agree.

I am still hoping we are seeking legal council and defo hope we make the EFL bankrupt over this.

It was predetermined in my view, I think they hoped we would lose to Boro, and then when we didnt they panicked.

There was no reason for us to be excluded. Other than Parsons handing it to them on a silver platter.

I find it mental a minority on here are so against what happened.

I mean I wish we hadnt done it but ffs there is worse stuff.

I keep coming back to the silence from the club, in that I wonder if they can't say anything yet that could prejudice our case.

Oh, and **** Parsons, Boro, **** the EFL, and why not say a **** VAR too.

Thing is we didn't help ourselves by lying at the outset and then having to sheepishly backtrack and that's always going to be an aggravating factor.

While I do think it was on the harsh side the problem lies in the fact they clearly consider a sporting advantage to be worthy of a sporting sanction.

When the game in question is a knockout one and not a league game what other sporting sanction is there?

Re your other point around the morality of it, I'm much more annoyed that we did it in such an amateur fashion than the fact we did it.

I am pissed off about the Eastleigh thing though as that could feasibly cost them income.