Off Topic Aliens

[thefanwithnoname]

Mohammed claiming god revealed it to him, is not a credible argument, it needs external verification.

However, the 'till' bit and the fact that they clearly say they believed it was pagan before mohammed heard voices, and the other evidence in my earlier reply shows its origins are pagan, even your books confirm it, or there'd be no need for the 'revelation'.

Edit. Let me see if I can break it down a bit more.

They believed it was pagan, because that's what their eyes and experience had witnessed. The fact that your books even need to try to explain why it's no longer pagan, says it was in deed pagan up to that point.

They believed their own first hand evidence 'till' mohamed said he'd heard voices. bells or whatever, which he takes to mean that these things were originally for his god, but pagans took them, and now followers of mohamed can take them back.

This claim from mohamed needs some external proof. I'd argue that the fact no abrahimic faiths have similar and that it's unlikely Abraham ever went near mecca, and had probably never heard of it, as it gets little mention in other writing of the time, so wasn't a significant place, and it's unlikely that the kaaba is old enough, all point to it being pagan. There is evidence from historians that the nomadic, pagan arabs would travel to meet up once a year to settle any tribal disputes, and these 'pilgrimages' are the most likely source of the hajj.

Even if you choose to deny any or all of that, your ultimate claim is that it was from the Abrahimic faith, which itself takes its stories from earlier pagan tales.

Someone hearing voices, images or sensations and claiming they're divine, is not proof, as Peter Sutcliffe found out when he tried that one.

You have gone full rant mode again, but now throwing in insults/digs. No need for that

Your points are totally invalid because as it is clear and I have pointed out time and time again I haven't bought Muhammad into this debate. We are discussing what YOU bought as evidence and it is Anas who made this statement not Muhammad

The only bit I added was that the SAI is based on Hagar and Ishmael. If you can show evidence that it was there prior to Hagar and Ishmael then bring your evidence

 

[thefanwithnoname]

It's better left guys.
While I think both parties have been somewhat respectful on a personal level, there really is no point trying to debate something you know to be factually true with someone whose religion wont let them agree with you.
The problem is religious folk quote their respective Holy book as a source of credible information, where as to an Atheist, their book has about as much factual credibility as Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince or Fifty Shades of Grey.

I would suggest closing this thread. That is unless DMD and Fan wish to talk each other in circles for another few weeks?

The only thing is I haven't quoted anything, DMD did and as is the norm with atheists they are happy to mock, as you have done in your post, but when challenged desperately try and bring the debate back to mockery. The usual harry potter nonsense comes to the fore

I personally think its insecurity and they know that if their own beliefs are put on the table it would make harry Potter and the half blood Prince look like the encyclopedia Britannica

I have yet to meet an atheist who will discuss their belief

 

[DMD]

The only thing is I haven't quoted anything, DMD did and as is the norm with atheists they are happy to mock, as you have done in your post, but when challenged desperately try and bring the debate back to mockery. The usual harry potter nonsense comes to the fore

I personally think its insecurity and they know that if their own beliefs are put on the table it would make harry Potter and the half blood Prince look like the encyclopedia Britannica

I have yet to meet an atheist who will discuss their belief

I haven't mocked, and I'm not an atheist.

 

[Bodinki]

The only thing is I haven't quoted anything, DMD did and as is the norm with atheists they are happy to mock, as you have done in your post, but when challenged desperately try and bring the debate back to mockery. The usual harry potter nonsense comes to the fore

I personally think its insecurity and they know that if their own beliefs are put on the table it would make harry Potter and the half blood Prince look like the encyclopedia Britannica

I have yet to meet an atheist who will discuss their belief

That because Atheists have no belief
As already stated, Atheism is a rejection of a belief.

 

[thefanwithnoname]

I wouldn't mind....however one of the first things in a debate have to be respect or it won't work, won't last and I certainly wouldn't let it pass when someone is throwing in underhanded digs...that won't change so I'm not interested. I can't really be arsed to try to rationalise, ultimately if someone doesn't want to believe in what I believe in then fine....DMD is on his 'I need to prove that God does not exist and Islam is a Pagan faith in disguise . Can see right through it and I wouldn't patronise myself by trying to 'discuss' anything with someone who's default is that. My approach to that is somewhat different to debate lol

I couldn't give a **** what DMD thinks.....he's a drop in the ocean, probably the piss droplet trickling down the Urinal.

Don't waste your time Fan

I appreciate your honesty lol

It needs going with DMD and his ilk every noe and again and I can keep it going

I just need someone else to keep it going so likes of DMD can't hide

 

[thefanwithnoname]

That because Atheists have no belief
As already stated, Atheism is a rejection of a belief.

What all beliefs or just in God/s

I would love to know your thoughts on how we came to be, for example

 

[DMD]

You have gone full rant mode again, but now throwing in insults/digs. No need for that

Your points are totally invalid because as it is clear and I have pointed out time and time again I haven't bought Muhammad into this debate. We are discussing what YOU bought as evidence and it is Anas who made this statement not Muhammad

The only bit I added was that the SAI is based on Hagar and Ishmael. If you can show evidence that it was there prior to Hagar and Ishmael then bring your evidence

I'm not ranting in any way.

Other than a claim from your book(s)What is your evidence that the hajj is abrahimic?

What is your defence to my claim that abrahimic stories are pagan in origin?

What is your argument against the other associated points I make?

 

[DMD]

I appreciate your honesty lol

It needs going with DMD and his ilk every noe and again and I can keep it going

I just need someone else to keep it going so likes of DMD can't hide

I'm not hiding. I'm sat patiently waiting for your response.

 

[thefanwithnoname]

I'm not ranting in any way.

Other than a claim from your book(s)What is your evidence that the hajj is abrahimic?

What is your argument against the other associated points I make?

Good try but not done with your claims.

Anas quote was posted by you not me and I await evidence for the SAI

You need to back your claims or its not a discussion as agreed in the terms

You have already broken them by being disrespectful with the peter Sutcliffe comment. Please work on your manners, I don't care how you were raised its rude

 

[thefanwithnoname]

I'm not hiding. I'm sat patiently waiting for your response.

Yes all night by the looks of things and you are hiding, its obvious with long rants and sly digs. @Spurlock has your number

But I digress and as we agreed stick to one post. This was a response to spurlock

Now back to your anas quote and claim. Do shed light but do so back in the other post

 

[DMD]

Good try but not done with your claims.

Anas quote was posted by you not me and I await evidence for the SAI

You need to back your claims or its not a discussion as agreed in the terms

You have already broken them by being disrespectful with the peter Sutcliffe comment. Please work on your manners, I don't care how you were raised its rude

It's not rude, it's a simple example of why claims 'god did it' are not credible.

Your 'demands' break these imaginary rules of yours, but I don't care. I'm comfortable exploring any avenue you throw up, especially as you seem intent on taking it on some merry dance, no matter what's posted.

I'm away for a few hours. Try to fill that time with a few answers to the points I raised.

 

[DMD]

Yes all night by the looks of things and you are hiding, its obvious with long rants and sly digs. @Spurlock has your number

But I digress and as we agreed stick to one post. This was a response to spurlock

Now back to your anas quote and claim. Do shed light but do so back in the other post

Spurlock is an irrelevance. He'll just disrupt the thread rather than debate.

You need a better second than him in your corner.

 

[Bodinki]

What all beliefs or just in God/s

I would love to know your thoughts on how we came to be, for example

Well Deities of course.
I believe in some stuff.

I believe the sun should never set upon an argument
I believe we place our happiness in other peoples hands
I believe that Junk food tastes so good because it's bad for you
I believe your parents did the best job they knew how to do
I believe that beauty magazines promote low self esteem
I believe i'm loved when i'm completely by myself alone

I believe in karma what you give is what you get returned
I believe you can't appreciate real love till you've been burned
I believe the grass is no......


Hang on, those are song lyrics

In terms of what my thoughts are.....I head a department that is in charge of repairing gym equipment mate.....I have to trust in what people far smarter than myself can discover.
Science makes sense to me, people put forth theories, they test them , then use the facts to try determine the validity of a theory.
It's a process that seems thought out, fair, methodical and practical.

Religion, to me, offers nothing but guff, fairy tales and superstitious nonsense. All unsubstantiated at that

 

[thefanwithnoname]

It's not rude, it's a simple example of why claims 'god did it' are not credible.

Your 'demands' break these imaginary rules of yours, but I don't care. I'm comfortable exploring any avenue you throw up, especially as you seem intent on taking it on some merry dance, no matter what's posted.

I'm away for a few hours. Try to fill that time with a few answers to the points I raised.

I haven't claimed my God did it, I haven't claimed anything more than to say YOUR quotes font do what YOU claim

I have made no demands, unless you call asking you for evidence of the SAI prior to Hagar but even that is based on your claims/assertions

Ia trying to have s discussion, one that you started. But you seem to want to throw random questions and insults, dont know why tbh

Its good you are taking a break. A chance to reflect perhaps?

 

[thefanwithnoname]

Spurlock is an irrelevance. He'll just disrupt the thread rather than debate.

You need a better second than him in your corner.

I suggested him and PNP as neutrals. Think you need to read the memos it may help stop you making **** up

But back to the discussion hey

 

[thefanwithnoname]

Well Deities of course.
I believe in some stuff.

I believe the sun should never set upon an argument
I believe we place our happiness in other peoples hands
I believe that Junk food tastes so good because it's bad for you
I believe your parents did the best job they knew how to do
I believe that beauty magazines promote low self esteem
I believe i'm loved when i'm completely by myself alone

I believe in karma what you give is what you get returned
I believe you can't appreciate real love till you've been burned
I believe the grass is no......


Hang on, those are song lyrics

In terms of what my thoughts are.....I head a department that is in charge of repairing gym equipment mate.....I have to trust in what people far smarter than myself can discover.
Science makes sense to me, people put forth theories, they test them , then use the facts to try determine the validity of a theory.
It's a process that seems thought out, fair, methodical and practical.

Religion, to me, offers nothing but guff, fairy tales and superstitious nonsense. All unsubstantiated at that

Fair enough mate but if that's the case then no point getting involved IMO

To me when people say what you have it shows they have little understanding of religion usually based on own experiences, usually Christianity of some form and very little analysis/study of religion as a whole or at all

The science "is yay" I find humorous, generally not sinef at you specifically, because not only us it necessarily at odds with religion but its usually not investigated either

Each to their own unsubstantiated fairytale I guess

 

[Bodinki]

Fair enough mate but if that's the case then no point getting involved IMO

To me when people say what you have it shows they have little understanding of religion usually based on own experiences, usually Christianity of some form and very little analysis/study of religion as a whole or at all

The science "is yay" I find humorous, generally not sinef at you specifically, because not only us it necessarily at odds with religion but its usually not investigated either

Each to their own unsubstantiated fairytale I guess

I guess the main difference is that science does not put something forward as a fact until it is verified as such.
Theories are put forward, but they are subject to change when new information or technology becomes available.

Religious information is gleaned from books that were written hundreds of years ago, by nobodies, in a time period where people knew **** all about anything, and it is generally not subject to change or amendment. And the world view of humanity in 0 AD, bears zero resemblance to the 21st Century.

 

[thefanwithnoname]

I guess the main difference is that science does not put something forward as a fact until it is verified as such.
Theories are put forward, but they are subject to change when new information or technology becomes available.

Religious information is gleaned from books that were written hundreds of years ago, by nobodies, in a time period where people knew **** all about anything, and it is generally not subject to change or amendment. And the world view of humanity in 0 AD, bears zero resemblance to the 21st Century.

The main difference is there isn't much difference when you delve into it.

If you are an evolutionist you call the bible just a bunch of stories, OK fine but on closer inspection Darwin's book is also just a bunch of stories

People like DMD say religion is copied of what preceded it, you look into Darwin and find tulsi (or whatever his name was) preceded him

On top of that is the totally funny, IMO, argument that science is somehow similar to religion in what it proposes.

Let me explain this using a story from hadith. Muslims believe Muhammad is the last prophet and came to us to tell us about a creator. His message, as with all abrahamic and some others, is ultimately about God as creator. A man asked Muhammad where he should sow his date crop one season.

Muhammad said here, the crop was a failure. The man complained and was told you asked MY opinion and I gave it, if you wanted a view on where it would grow best then ask the people of knowledge.

Point being science explaining things it has knowledge about is not at odds with religion never has been

 

[Bodinki]

The main difference is there isn't much difference when you delve into it.

If you are an evolutionist you call the bible just a bunch of stories, OK fine but on closer inspection Darwin's book is also just a bunch of stories

People like DMD say religion is copied of what preceded it, you look into Darwin and find tulsi (or whatever his name was) preceded him

On top of that is the totally funny, IMO, argument that science is somehow similar to religion in what it proposes.

Let me explain this using a story from hadith. Muslims believe Muhammad is the last prophet and came to us to tell us about a creator. His message, as with all abrahamic and some others, is ultimately about God as creator. A man asked Muhammad where he should sow his date crop one season.

Muhammad said here, the crop was a failure. The man complained and was told you asked MY opinion and I gave it, if you wanted a view on where it would grow best then ask the people of knowledge.

Point being science explaining things it has knowledge about is not at odds with religion never has been

Well the difference is religion doesn't have knowledge of anything.
Like I said, they are stories, written by **** knows who, in an age where humanity knew nothing of anything.
Its a bunch of wives tales and myths, collated by whoever the **** and written down as a morality tale to stop people from going mad in an age where humanity had no answers.
What is the sun? We know the answer to that now
What is the moon? We know the answer to that now
Why do we have day and night? We know the answer to that now
Why does it rain? ...you see where I am going with this?
And all these answers came from science.....not religion.

 

[thefanwithnoname]

Well the difference is religion doesn't have knowledge of anything.
Like I said, they are stories, written by **** knows who, in an age where humanity knew nothing of anything.
Its a bunch of wives tales and myths, collated by whoever the **** and written down as a morality tale to stop people from going mad in an age where humanity had no answers.
What is the sun? We know the answer to that now
What is the moon? We know the answer to that now
Why do we have day and night? We know the answer to that now
Why does it rain? ...you see where I am going with this?
And all these answers came from science.....not religion.

I know where you are going and its something I have heard from people like yourself all my life, but as the DMD argument shows it based on false premises

Let's take the rain, sure we have hadith etc saying rain is a mercy from Allah but these in themselves don't purport to explain the rain cycle. Rain in the desert of Arabia is certainly a mercy even if in Manchester we grumble

That said certain aspects of explanations of rain cycle have been discussed using Quran text by some