I think they would have visited at least once.
After all, the Hitchikers guide to the galaxy does state Earth
is "mostly harmless" .
Off Topic Aliens
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I think they would have visited at least once.
After all, the Hitchikers guide to the galaxy does state Earth
is "mostly harmless" .
I didn't think it'd do, but it was fun to try.
Just go for it. I agree.
So, my response has no questions, they're just statements in line with your conditions and no wing washing.
To recap, your demand was:
"Before I address any further issues raised I would like an explanation on how you believe I have "got indignant" and an explanation how the Koran is a variation of paganism adapted for political gain. i would specifically like this open minded background you speak of.
No answer to that and no more engaging with you"
http://www.not606.com/threads/aliens.349638/page-24#post-10698389
So, Your replies demonstrate that you 'get indignant' and your more recent ones confirm this. Indignant: showing anger or annoyance at what is perceived as unfair treatment. That's nicely summed up by your demand for answers.
Many of the rituals and traditions of Islam, predate it, and were carried out by pagans. Pagans shared the Hajj until mohamed kicked them out. Some of mohamed's buddies complained about some of the rituals because of their pagan background.
Sahih Bukhari Volume 2, Book 26, Number 689: Narrated Abu Huraira: In the year prior to the last Hajj of the Prophet when Allahs Apostle made Abu Bakr the leader of the pilgrims, the latter (Abu Bakr) sent me in the company of a group of people to make a public announcement: 'No pagan is allowed to perform Hajj after this year, and no naked person is allowed to perform Tawaf of the Kaba.'
Sahih al-Bukhari 2 Book 26 710 Narrated 'Asim: I asked Anas bin Malik: "Did you use to dislike to perform Tawaf between Safa and Marwa?" He said, "Yes, as it was of the ceremonies of the days of the Pre-lslamic period of ignorance, till Allah revealed: 'Verily! (The two mountains) As-Safa and Al-Marwa are among the symbols of Allah. It is therefore no sin for him who performs the pilgrimage to the Ka'ba, or performs 'Umra, to perform Tawaf between them.'" (2.158)
As for the politicalisation, it's self evident. Most countries separate church and state. It is virtually impossible to do that (although I think Kosovo managed) and strictly follow islam, because much of the instruction in the koran is about governance and law, particularly judgments. It cannot be subservient to state.
Your go.
OK good.
Now to be clear which bit do you want me to start with here? I am thinking, if you agree, we leave the nonsense behind us, so the indignant bit and focus on the important issues. No more he said she said if you will.
Now the restbif what you wrote is something that I don't agree with. To take bits of it, you are saying many of the things predate Islam, no problem si fasting was fine before as was circumbalation of the Kaaba. My issue with you is that this doesn't mean its origins are in paganism. So for example your posted bit says safa and marwa are among the symbols of Allah, returning to something thstvis from Allah isn't pagan
You need to support that with evidence. I've shown you that mohamedans said it was pagan. You need to show why they were wrong.
I did using your posted evidence re safa and marwa. Similarly the circumbalation of the Kaaba was done before Islam but established from Abraham so can't be pagan in origin
The problem here is its your claims that are wrong and based on no evidence. Even using the term Mohammedans is incorrect as to worship Muhammad is shirk
Ta
Some nice looking grub tbf. My garden currently not useable so BBQ still in shed
The evidence I offered was the words of mohameds mates at the time, I didn't say they worshiped him, I said they followed him, so are mohamdans, and they described the rituals as pagan,
Were mohameds mates wrong, and if so in what way?
They are followers of mohamed, and therefore mohamedans. It's just another term for muslim.
In what way are those two quotes, never mind all the other evidence, not his mates saying they were pagan ceremonies?
'Abu Bakr sent me in the company of a group of people to make a public announcement: 'No pagan is allowed to perform Hajj after this year, and no naked person is allowed to perform Tawaf of the Kaba.'
or
"Did you use to dislike to perform Tawaf between Safa and Marwa?" He said, "Yes, as it was of the ceremonies of the days of the Pre-lslamic period of ignorance, '
No it's not a term for Muslims, it goes against Islamic belief.
I don't get how you can't see the problem with your claim as it's evident from those two quotes
take the first. So pagans and non Muslims are not allowed to do hajj. This doesn't mean the hajj is a pagan ritual. Fasting in ramadhan doesn't make you a Muslim, here I mean you DMD
The second quote is specific evidence that the " sai" as it is called between safa and marwa are rooted in abrahamic belief. FYI its based on Hagar running between the two mountains with Ishmael and God answering her prayers. The hadith in full corrects the narrator.
You seem to be claiming the link to abrahimic tales, means it wasn't pagan. The people themselves describe it as pagan, plus most of the Abrahimic stories are remakes of earlier pagan tales, such as the epics of gilgamesh, that mentions the flood, Adam and Eve etc. or Egyptian moon worship.
I am claiming?
I am discussing what YOU posted. The second quote clearly says "used to dislike" and then says Allah revealed the verse ie they started tondo it without disliking and due to its religious beginning
I am loathe to move onto the new claims you have made until we have thrashed out this one.
Once we have decided the issue at hand ie the hajj and paganism then you can provide me examples of the abrahamic stories and how they were remade and from what.
Now back to the hajj, glad to see you have moved on from Mohammedans, can you show me with evidence the pagan origins? Note origins not pagans participating as that was established and they were told to do one
I haven't moved on, I'm still commenting on the pagan roots of abrahimic faiths, be they from Ishmael, Isaac or another descendant. I offered the epics of gilgamesh and egyptian beliefs as evidence that the stories the traditions stem from, predate the faith. It's for you to show the stories differ significantly.
EDIT,
I'm guessing you're wanting something specific about the Hajj, so I'll point out that historians say the kaaba didn't exist in Abraham's time, so can't form part of his beliefs. It was certainly pagan pre-mohamed, as evidenced by the book talking of removing the other idols. It's notable that the other abrahimic faiths have no similar rituals, but other pagan ones in that area do/did, and include other elements like the washing and walking round it, which points to the more likely origins.
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We were discussing, in your words,
Many of the rituals and traditions of Islam, predate it, and were carried out by pagans. Pagans shared the Hajj until mohamed kicked them out. Some of mohamed's buddies complained about some of the rituals because of their pagan background.
My point was that yes pagans did some of it but the roots are not pagan
Muhammad's "mates" were told the rituals had roots in God
Now its up to you to provide this or concede
If you concede then you need to be specific about what appeared where as just saying it copied x adds nothing to the discussion. We need specifics
I edited my other reply.
It's up to you to show that what I'm claiming is wrong. The roots of abrahimic faiths are certainly pagan. The stories are documented before Abraham's time in the epics and egyptian records.
Historians say that the kaaba didn't exist in Abraham's time, so any associated traditions cannot stem from him.
Similar traditions don't exist in the other Abrahimic faiths that the koran takes many of its stories from, but they did exist in local pagan beliefs, which is confirmed by the quotes I mentioned. This points at the most likely origins.
You need some specifics in your reply.
I have shown you where you are wrong from your very quotes. You seem to be ignoring this. Not surprising for you but we can't really move on from this until we have reached a satisfactory conclusion, to what was your initial claim.
Once we have concluded that then, as per the agreement its my turn to ask.
So to reiterate, your initial claim utilises the wrong quotes, they point to the hajj being from God not paganism. I could supplement those quotes from other hadith, by ayesha for example, but no need as the ones you posted back my argument not yours.
If you are unwilling or unable to address this then its an impasse and a ref needs to be called to administer a decision
Here's a thought, to show no complete bias on my part
@PleaseNotPoll and @Spurlock what say you?
Be the refs and adjudicate?
@PleaseNotPoll and @Spurlock what say you?
Be the refs and adjudicate?