He didn't choose to ignore it - there is more to youth development than just buying youngsters and sticking them straight into the first team. He brought them, developed them and sold them if they weren't good enough - on the whole, we have sold a lot of youth players at a profit. As I said earlier, he was responsible of the overhaul - he was never going to reap the benefits so soon - youth development is a long process which spans decades.
He did. He fell out with Heighway & when he bought youngsters he didn't put them into the academy, he kept them with 'his' squad. It was an act of arrogant defiance & created conflict. He eventually won the battle & took control of it himself, but to say that there wasn't a period when he totally ignored your academy is denying the truth.
So are you saying he should have played the youth even if they weren't good enough? Also, Rafa was more concerned with developing the first team when he first arrived. Once he got his feet under the table, he then looked at transforming the academy.
It's all talk though Jimmy. Technically gifted, exciting, attacking I hear you say. Let's take the years before we even had an academy and see what we were producing.....Fowler, Owen, McManaman, Gerrard to name the best ones. Technically gifted? Yes. Exciting? Yes. Attacking? Damn right. All four (and others incl. Carra) were of a very good international standard of footballer. My point is simple Jimmy, I'm not saying it will never work, only that as of this moment it's produced **** all. Pre-academy we already had a system in place that worked. Since the opening of the academy we haven't produced A SINGLE top four standard player. Argue all you like about the potential of Rossiter, McLaughlin et al but there really is no argument you can make with regards to it being a success of any sort....so far. I'm glad we're shaking it up a bit in all honesty.
Benitez brought in loads of sub standard young players that created a bottleneck between the academy & 'his' squad. How many players did he actually play that came through your academy? & yet within a year of him leaving the likes of Kelly, Spearing, Flanagan & Robinson had become regular first team players.........
I hear what you're saying however the players you mentioned made their debuts a long time ago: Fowler - 93 Macca - 91 Carra - 97 Gerrard - 98 Owen - 97 5 players in around two decades? And none since Gerrard which was 1998 - I'm sorry but I don't buy into the fact that our academy was doing all that great. This new academy has not produced 'top 4' calibre players yet - it's only been operation since 2009 - 4 years to develop top class players is quite unreasonable in my opinion.
"4 years to develop top class players is quite unreasonable in my opinion." for a club with ambitions, not really. we are not in a good financially position like the City and Chelsea of this world, so if we want to compete with them we have to do it the hard way and produce them from the academy, and preferably asap.
I reiterate - youth development is not a quick process e.g. Barca's La Masia was the brainchild of Cruyff, one which took around 20 years for the club to reap the benefits. Wenger has been in charge at Arsenal for around 15 years - he's had time to implement his philosophies and develop. Rafa spent his initial years looking after his first team and building an experienced squad. He then overhauled the academy in 2008/09. He was then sacked in 2010. Can he really have developed top class players between that short period of time? And exactly how good are Kelly, Spearing, Flanagan & Robinson? They're not regular first teamers with Spearing being sold and Flanno and Robbo not being good enough.
Unfortunately you just can't argue with the fact that we were producing youngsters of first team quality before the Academy came along and we haven't been since. Now I accept there is an argument to say it may have been a touch of coincidence having the likes of Robbie, Macca, Gerrard, Carra and Owen coming through at similar times and I'm not pretending our old youth system would have kept pumping out such talent at such a rate. However f you look at how many games we got out of those 5 (must be comfortably over 1500) and how many first team appearances we've had from Academy players over the last 15 years the sums just don't add up eh.
They became first team regulars after his departure though, that's a simple fact. He'd gave durge like Plessis an opportunity, but not a homegrown like Spearing - that's the point.
But Spearing is sh*te lol - what is the point? It's not as if Spearing proved Rafa wrong? Rafa used players like Ayala and Paletta who weren't good enough and he sold them. Nothing to do with favouritism IMO. And Flanno and Robbo were not first team regulars. Spearing had a spell due to injuries.
Talking **** there Tobes, Plessis played in one game!!!!!! It was a MOTM performances against Arsenal. Spearing and others had a chance or too. Rafa also gave Robinson his debut.
The point I'm making Jimmy is that it hasn't produced anything since its inception 15 years ago. I genuinely don't give a crap how many times it gets overhauled unless it produces some actual players that do more than prop up the first team when we're desperate. It "might" have started producing under Rafas set up but even now there isn't a single player in our youth set up who you can point to and say he WILL make it. Well you could when watching Owen, Robbie or Gerrard. If only Stevie Heighway had been a bit more appreciated....unfortunately we became obsessed with spending a fortune trying to turn pisswater into wine instead of just maintaining the vineyard we already owned .
The fact that he's currently had a far better career than Plessis, might say that he did prove him wrong like. But again, you avoid the salient point. Benitez bought loads of young nothing players that he'd use in the first team before he'd even give a glance at the academy lads. If you were one of the academy lads at the time, you'd have very little expectation of every being given the chance to progress during his tenure. Young players need to be given their chance, to prove that they're either up to it or not. Benitez closed the door on your academy until he got his own way.
I agree that we need to produce more quality players in order to improve our chances of competing - 100%. However - to find players with a) top class potential, b) top class attitude, c) top class coaches to nurture these players, d) develop a style which runs throughout the club all in 4 years is some going. We've managed to achieve this. What we haven't achieved is finding young players who are good enough to start in the first team and deliver. We often talk about not wanting to rush the likes of Sterling, Wisdom, Ibe and let them develop naturally - but now we're expecting them push us into the top 4? ...
Towards the end of his tenure Rafa made sure RObinson had a debut, bought Shelvey and Sterling for a pretty penny. I don't think he was ignoring them, I don't think they were there yet and why he put in Borrell and Segura to try and get that changed. Also missed that he played Plessis once!!
with respect tobes you don't know what you are talking about. I'm sorry but you do not know more about the LFc under age system than the LFC fans on here. To bring up steve heighway and make out that the guy who won fa youth cups with the likes of putteril, linfield and spearing (i bring them up specifically) was somehow making footballing gods akin to the great everton academy and benetiz (who i am long since on record about his madness in the end) dumped him for no good reason? I brought up putteril as he was our most skillful player on show by far at that time. he left us to go nonleague and hasn't gone much further thoguh did get to accrington. Now he did get an injury along the way and made his debut for us in the league cup. Spearing is well known for being the cpatain of the youth cup team but played rb there as well as midfield yet again was limited. Linfield is another classic example, let go to accrington. again good header of the ball but no pace. In short heighway was moved on, not to placate benitez who hung him out to dry but to try and justify the huge academy expense by reorganising it on a european basis under benitez's lines. If you think benitez ignored our academy you are just plain wrong. Its reality check time. Benitez in 2005 had a pretty poor side that won the CL... and he bought a lot of players too... but he won two cups in his first two years, and reached a cl final in this third. so just place lfc..... top 4 and latter stages of CL too boot. so somehow is "ignored" youth... what precise youth? Danny guthrie? do we think he would be a top 4 player cos he played for a good while for newcastle? never showed much... the 3 I mentioned..... how about paul anderson, or adam hamill or danni pacheco to name but a few? You have to be good enough to get a game. again he brought in insua, palletta, leto gonzalez, suso, even sterling. none got a chance??? leto is the biggest success from his kids along with san jose leto couldn't get a work permit so had to be sold. I would contend that many youths were given games under benetiz and when you have the likes of alonso et al it was only the rare one that looked good enough. how about this list from memory Jack Robinson in rafa's last game Martin Kelly LFc debut under rafa in CL. Looked bloody awful at Cb that night for 9mins Stephen Darby given a few games turned out to be league 1. Dani Pacheco failed under 4 lfc managers, no drive. Nathan Eccleston now reserve at blackpool? decent but couldn't get it on target. Jay Spearing we all know he is ok but kind of just ok. Daniel Ayala went to hull and now boro. decent but not up to it. Damien Plessis Jack Hobbs Emiliano Insua Gabriel Paletta Looked awful, went home to argentina and now at parma Nabil El Zhar Danny Guthrie Daniel Agger was only 21 when he made his debut for rafa. Darren Potter Stephen Warnock - we had risse so a choice was made by player This list above shows one thing a mix of signings in the majority and a low level of locals something through. yet not one... single.. solitary... kid we let go really makes it big time.... what did rafa do wrong and heighway do so right then???? Benetiz saw what he had, decided to buy in foreign youth like arsenal did. he bought it in and tried them out, then sold them on. His problem if anything was loving a deal too much and buying mad silly players especially his bargain bucket ones... but none blocked some wunderkinder. The REAL question is the kids aged 8-10 coming in under mcpharland and borrell... say give it 5-6 years... are now... 14-16. are any good enough to make it. thats the real question.
He hardly used Plessis anyways so again it's void. It's not as if Plessis was a first team starter. In addition, we had the likes of Mascherano, Sissoko, Gerrard and Alonso in central midfield. But you're avoiding the point - if there were a youngster who was good enough, he would have played them. Who was going to dislodge the likes Torres, Gerrard, Mascherano, Alonso etc? As I maintain, Rafa was very much interested in youth but he was in it for the long haul. I've read numerous interview how he wanted to create a legacy at Liverpool. His primary aim was to sort out the first team which is what we did when we had a great team in 08/09, then create an academy for the future. You may be right in that he neglected some players but the key thing is that Rafa put in a system/process/philosophy for the future generations.
